Comments on: a rant by a runt about the american church, part 7 http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/ life, faith, youth ministry, emerging church, leadership, whimsy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:12:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: ysmarko http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2474 ysmarko Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:04:30 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2474 [...] being systemitizers here (part 6) the unfortunate results of being highly individualistic here (part 7) since we americans are over-staters, and we love blanket-statements… our best overstaters bec [...] [...] being systemitizers here (part 6) the unfortunate results of being highly individualistic here (part 7) since we americans are over-staters, and we love blanket-statements… our best overstaters bec [...]

]]> By: ysmarko http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2446 ysmarko Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:52:34 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2446 [...] being systemitizers here (part 6) the unfortunate results of being highly individualistic here (part 7) the unfortunate results of being overstaters here (part 8) anyone getting bored with this rant? i&# [...] [...] being systemitizers here (part 6) the unfortunate results of being highly individualistic here (part 7) the unfortunate results of being overstaters here (part 8) anyone getting bored with this rant? i&# [...]

]]> By: Horse Blog http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2436 Horse Blog Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:49:46 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2436 <strong>American Church Rant</strong> Vox clamantis in deserto.... American Church Rant

Vox clamantis in deserto….

]]> By: Eric Wakeling http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2429 Eric Wakeling Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:47:30 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2429 theory, theory, theory, books, books, books = blah blah blah Who has actually had success with multi-gen ministry and why do you think it worked at your site? theory, theory, theory, books, books, books = blah blah blah

Who has actually had success with multi-gen ministry and why do you think it worked at your site?

]]> By: neal w. http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2428 neal w. Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:29:30 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2428 Ever heard of multi-churching? I've got a book by Matthew Paul Turner that advocates it ("5 benefits of multichurching") - says that it's better to take snippets from many different congregations. I can appreciate that perspective as an attempt to get all our needs met, to be more well-rounded than our denominations would have us be. Sounds good, sounds healthy, but I think it might be an instance of forsaking the best for the good. It remains unhealthily individualistic; it leaves out the concept of community altogether. Turner tries to confront this when he says that the "best thing" about multichurching is that it helps build community. Well, no...it helps build a large network of acquantances. Not entirely the same thing. And yes, it remains ultra-consumeristic. Let's go to the place that serves us the best-tasting Christianity without us having to make a commitment or invest in that group. That's only a shadow of the church. Let's face it...there are good things about consumerism (or we wouldn't be pathological consumers). It gives us instant gratification. It makes things nicely packaged and convenient. But like nicely packaged, convenient food, nicely packaged convenient churches may not be the healthiest choice. Ever heard of multi-churching? I’ve got a book by Matthew Paul Turner that advocates it (“5 benefits of multichurching”) – says that it’s better to take snippets from many different congregations. I can appreciate that perspective as an attempt to get all our needs met, to be more well-rounded than our denominations would have us be. Sounds good, sounds healthy, but I think it might be an instance of forsaking the best for the good. It remains unhealthily individualistic; it leaves out the concept of community altogether. Turner tries to confront this when he says that the “best thing” about multichurching is that it helps build community. Well, no…it helps build a large network of acquantances. Not entirely the same thing. And yes, it remains ultra-consumeristic. Let’s go to the place that serves us the best-tasting Christianity without us having to make a commitment or invest in that group. That’s only a shadow of the church. Let’s face it…there are good things about consumerism (or we wouldn’t be pathological consumers). It gives us instant gratification. It makes things nicely packaged and convenient. But like nicely packaged, convenient food, nicely packaged convenient churches may not be the healthiest choice.

]]> By: pablo http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2416 pablo Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:09:03 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2416 have you ever read "A Peculiar People" by Rodney Clapp?? This book is definitly along the lines of what you are talking about... you should check it out... Also, John Westerhoff came to ming when you were talking about seperating students into "age group ghettos"... he talked about this stuff in the 70's... have you ever read “A Peculiar People” by Rodney Clapp?? This book is definitly along the lines of what you are talking about… you should check it out…

Also, John Westerhoff came to ming when you were talking about seperating students into “age group ghettos”… he talked about this stuff in the 70′s…

]]> By: sevita http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2412 sevita Fri, 09 Dec 2005 05:16:57 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2412 at this point in my life, i'd take autonomy and individualism any day over the what has been true of church and denominations for the past mellinian. reactionary yes...but maybe healthy. and i think church shopping is more than a reflection of our consumeristic nature. i think it's a reflection of our deeper desire (just as i would say consumerism is). we have a deep desire for a church that would live out who jesus is and we do not see it. so we keep hopping and hopeing for it in the next family. i would imagine that the people in europe don't stuggle with this as to the fact that they just simply stop going to church and shut down their deeper desires. i think church shopping speaks to the hope that the young people hold onto. i also think that churches becoming autonomus is a false covering for wanting the freedom to make thier own choices but not being able to totally embrace thier freedom. most churches who are offshuts are extremely similar to those they left. it's like having teenagers who want freedom and yet don't know what to do with it. but like your children you want them to grow up and gain independance; to have their own families and thier own traditions and their own beliefs. maybe our churches should be functioning the same way. maybe it isn't so bad for them to be healthily autonomous. maybe that creates potential for renewal and change. at this point in my life, i’d take autonomy and individualism any day over the what has been true of church and denominations for the past mellinian. reactionary yes…but maybe healthy. and i think church shopping is more than a reflection of our consumeristic nature. i think it’s a reflection of our deeper desire (just as i would say consumerism is). we have a deep desire for a church that would live out who jesus is and we do not see it. so we keep hopping and hopeing for it in the next family. i would imagine that the people in europe don’t stuggle with this as to the fact that they just simply stop going to church and shut down their deeper desires. i think church shopping speaks to the hope that the young people hold onto. i also think that churches becoming autonomus is a false covering for wanting the freedom to make thier own choices but not being able to totally embrace thier freedom. most churches who are offshuts are extremely similar to those they left. it’s like having teenagers who want freedom and yet don’t know what to do with it. but like your children you want them to grow up and gain independance; to have their own families and thier own traditions and their own beliefs. maybe our churches should be functioning the same way. maybe it isn’t so bad for them to be healthily autonomous. maybe that creates potential for renewal and change.

]]> By: marko http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2407 marko Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:10:13 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2407 yes, andy! all age-group ghettos are implied. i was only using youth ministry as an example because it's my personal context. yes, andy! all age-group ghettos are implied. i was only using youth ministry as an example because it’s my personal context.

]]> By: Andy http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2406 Andy Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:48:29 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2406 i have to comment because i actually see the age ghetto happening in reverse at an aging lutheran church. during the period that we had no youth director at St. Luke's, the youth, at least, all but 4 or so, would go elsewhere for service. this meant that there was no children's sermon many, many sundays and there was nothing but blue hair as far as the eye could see in the pews. i think the elderly are the demographic most neglected in all this... they absolutely have a desire to see youth involved in church, knowing that their generation will not be the last to worship God and, maybe more importantly (to them), knowing that they're important to the youth of the church and that they'll be remembered when they die. the message that gets sent when youth leave denominational or traditional churches is, "we don't care about you or this congregation enough to stay here... you're all old and - [wait for it] - <i>irrelevant</i>," and you might say, "that's not the message that it sends," but i'm at a church where it happens and i can say that it definitely IS the message that's sent. the church flavor-of-the-month club is destroying traditional services with good intentions (ref: inter-denominational). i go to flood at nite's to get my fill of contemporary worship and go to St. Luke's in the morning to remember <b>i'm not the first generation to worship Jesus</b>. i didn't mean to make such a long post but i think there is a huge age-ghetto left out of what's printed above... and i know it's written for youth workers... but they should also care about elderly age-ghettos and shouldn't withhold their youth (directed youth and personal youthfulness) from them. *exhale* all this to say i totally agree with everything you wrote! heart, andy i have to comment because i actually see the age ghetto happening in reverse at an aging lutheran church.
during the period that we had no youth director at St. Luke’s, the youth, at least, all but 4 or so, would go elsewhere for service. this meant that there was no children’s sermon many, many sundays and there was nothing but blue hair as far as the eye could see in the pews.
i think the elderly are the demographic most neglected in all this… they absolutely have a desire to see youth involved in church, knowing that their generation will not be the last to worship God and, maybe more importantly (to them), knowing that they’re important to the youth of the church and that they’ll be remembered when they die. the message that gets sent when youth leave denominational or traditional churches is, “we don’t care about you or this congregation enough to stay here… you’re all old and – [wait for it] – irrelevant,” and you might say, “that’s not the message that it sends,” but i’m at a church where it happens and i can say that it definitely IS the message that’s sent.
the church flavor-of-the-month club is destroying traditional services with good intentions (ref: inter-denominational). i go to flood at nite’s to get my fill of contemporary worship and go to St. Luke’s in the morning to remember i’m not the first generation to worship Jesus.
i didn’t mean to make such a long post but i think there is a huge age-ghetto left out of what’s printed above… and i know it’s written for youth workers… but they should also care about elderly age-ghettos and shouldn’t withhold their youth (directed youth and personal youthfulness) from them.
*exhale*
all this to say i totally agree with everything you wrote!

heart,
andy

]]> By: Sue http://whyismarko.com/2005/a-rant-by-a-runt-about-the-american-church-part-6/comment-page-1/#comment-2404 Sue Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:17:26 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=296#comment-2404 Marko, you are right on about the church needing to integrate generations. I am a third year youth director with a background in Christian classroom education. I used to teach kids in Christian schools and was always asking, "Why doesn't this work?" There essentially was no difference betweeen the actions of the Christian school kids and the public school kids. When I came on staff at my church, I started doing all kinds of reading trying to find out what actually DOES work. What does it take to grow a committed Christian kid whose walk demonstrates the talk? While I agree that there is a place for age-based church groups for youth, what actually works is strong relationships between youth and mature Christian adults. I'm doing everything I can at my church to get adults into kids' lives. I've read it may take as many as six mature Christians in a kid's life, so someday I'm going to write a book called, "Every Kid Needs a Six Pack." The Dewey system of education, which both our public schools and church education systems are based on, may get kids ready for the work force but has done a tremendous disservice to the Body of Christ. It's time to think theologically about what we "do" with our children. I hope YS can be a leader in this, because I see little chance that any other major interdenominational publishing company is going to be looking at that any time soon. More power to ya! Marko, you are right on about the church needing to integrate generations. I am a third year youth director with a background in Christian classroom education. I used to teach kids in Christian schools and was always asking, “Why doesn’t this work?” There essentially was no difference betweeen the actions of the Christian school kids and the public school kids. When I came on staff at my church, I started doing all kinds of reading trying to find out what actually DOES work. What does it take to grow a committed Christian kid whose walk demonstrates the talk? While I agree that there is a place for age-based church groups for youth, what actually works is strong relationships between youth and mature Christian adults. I’m doing everything I can at my church to get adults into kids’ lives. I’ve read it may take as many as six mature Christians in a kid’s life, so someday I’m going to write a book called, “Every Kid Needs a Six Pack.” The Dewey system of education, which both our public schools and church education systems are based on, may get kids ready for the work force but has done a tremendous disservice to the Body of Christ. It’s time to think theologically about what we “do” with our children. I hope YS can be a leader in this, because I see little chance that any other major interdenominational publishing company is going to be looking at that any time soon. More power to ya!

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