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	<title>Comments on: how would you characterize the future of youth ministry?</title>
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	<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/</link>
	<description>life, faith, youth ministry, emerging church, leadership, whimsy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:12:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Martin</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-631962</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-631962</guid>
		<description>Praxis huh.
www.praxis.org.nz</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Praxis huh.<br />
<a href="http://www.praxis.org.nz" rel="nofollow">http://www.praxis.org.nz</a></p>
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		<title>By: Is This The Goatee Convention? &#171; headsparks*</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-515820</link>
		<dc:creator>Is This The Goatee Convention? &#171; headsparks*</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-515820</guid>
		<description>[...] I am looking forward to hearing from Brenda Salter McNeil and Francis Chan, among others. I&#8217;m also eager to hear Marko&#8217;s thoughts on the future of youth ministry. I will be among those blogging from NYWC (although I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ll be able to live-blog). My notetaking skills are a bit rusty, so I might just be posting my impressions &#8212; but I&#8217;ll do my best! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I am looking forward to hearing from Brenda Salter McNeil and Francis Chan, among others. I&#8217;m also eager to hear Marko&#8217;s thoughts on the future of youth ministry. I will be among those blogging from NYWC (although I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ll be able to live-blog). My notetaking skills are a bit rusty, so I might just be posting my impressions &#8212; but I&#8217;ll do my best! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Walt Mueller</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-503109</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt Mueller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-503109</guid>
		<description>Marko - good thoughts. My vote is for you to spread that message of the Kingdom. That&#039;s what Jesus was about - that&#039;s what the church has forgotten - that&#039;s what youth ministry kids (lots of them from several generations) have never heard and we&#039;re bearing the fruit in the church today. Smith&#039;s &quot;theraputic, moralistic, deism&quot; - no understanding of the Kingdom. The lack of a faith integrated into all of life - no understanding of or embracing the Kingdom. While all of this has been happening there&#039;s been a group of folks who have been banging the Kingdom message home for years - much of it falling on deaf ears, sadly. When I was in college - back in the, ah, mid to late 70s - I hear Campolo and Skinner speak at the Jubilee Conference (consecutive years) about the message of the Kingdom. It hit me hard and has stayed with me since, shaping - I hope - my life and ministry. So if you&#039;re tallying votes, add one for &quot;Kingdom&quot;. See you in SD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marko &#8211; good thoughts. My vote is for you to spread that message of the Kingdom. That&#8217;s what Jesus was about &#8211; that&#8217;s what the church has forgotten &#8211; that&#8217;s what youth ministry kids (lots of them from several generations) have never heard and we&#8217;re bearing the fruit in the church today. Smith&#8217;s &#8220;theraputic, moralistic, deism&#8221; &#8211; no understanding of the Kingdom. The lack of a faith integrated into all of life &#8211; no understanding of or embracing the Kingdom. While all of this has been happening there&#8217;s been a group of folks who have been banging the Kingdom message home for years &#8211; much of it falling on deaf ears, sadly. When I was in college &#8211; back in the, ah, mid to late 70s &#8211; I hear Campolo and Skinner speak at the Jubilee Conference (consecutive years) about the message of the Kingdom. It hit me hard and has stayed with me since, shaping &#8211; I hope &#8211; my life and ministry. So if you&#8217;re tallying votes, add one for &#8220;Kingdom&#8221;. See you in SD.</p>
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		<title>By: Jodi</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-502455</link>
		<dc:creator>Jodi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-502455</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with the &quot;presence-driven&quot; people, except that I think it should be &quot;presence-centered.&quot;  It implies that we are aware of God&#039;s presence, participating in His dreams for the world and also being present to each other - something that is often lacking in the high energy culture.  &quot;Driven&quot; sounds forced though, where as &quot;centered&quot; is more intentional and focused.

As for the key themes, I think SEEKING.  Seeking applies to the personal journey of faith, the journey we take together, truth, justice, belonging, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with the &#8220;presence-driven&#8221; people, except that I think it should be &#8220;presence-centered.&#8221;  It implies that we are aware of God&#8217;s presence, participating in His dreams for the world and also being present to each other &#8211; something that is often lacking in the high energy culture.  &#8220;Driven&#8221; sounds forced though, where as &#8220;centered&#8221; is more intentional and focused.</p>
<p>As for the key themes, I think SEEKING.  Seeking applies to the personal journey of faith, the journey we take together, truth, justice, belonging, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: daniel so</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-501474</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel so</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 05:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-501474</guid>
		<description>Marko -- To echo your thoughts about dropping the &quot;driven/driver&quot; terminology, maybe &quot;centered&quot; is a better descriptor -- the emphasis on being, rather than doing. And, the emphasis on the core, rather than on the boundaries (i.e., defining who is &quot;in&quot; or &quot;out&quot;)... just some sketchy thoughts...  I can&#039;t wait to hear the final results...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marko &#8212; To echo your thoughts about dropping the &#8220;driven/driver&#8221; terminology, maybe &#8220;centered&#8221; is a better descriptor &#8212; the emphasis on being, rather than doing. And, the emphasis on the core, rather than on the boundaries (i.e., defining who is &#8220;in&#8221; or &#8220;out&#8221;)&#8230; just some sketchy thoughts&#8230;  I can&#8217;t wait to hear the final results&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Markham</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-501014</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Markham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-501014</guid>
		<description>I am honestly afraid that the future of youth ministry will simply be profession-driven. So many of us have been given the opportunity to do this full-time now that it has become in many circles a professional and respectable career. While that&#039;s great I fear that youth ministry may lose it&#039;s heart if we are not careful. Many of us have become experts in rallying support and resources, running large events, recruiting and organizing volunteers, balancing budgets and taking students on incredibly efficient and well organized mission trips. My fear is that as we strive to perfect our profession and our programs will we lose our hearts? Will connecting with students become second to making hotel reservations and placing t-shirt orders?

Youth ministry is supposed to be about walking with and assisting students as they discover and build a relationship with the same God we are deeply in love with. We must not forget this!

My hope is that the future of youth ministry will be grace-driven. My dream is to see youth ministry, as a whole, model for the western church what it is to be radically inclusive and accepting of everyone into our communities. That our message and focus of discipleship will be teaching students to see and know God&#039;s grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am honestly afraid that the future of youth ministry will simply be profession-driven. So many of us have been given the opportunity to do this full-time now that it has become in many circles a professional and respectable career. While that&#8217;s great I fear that youth ministry may lose it&#8217;s heart if we are not careful. Many of us have become experts in rallying support and resources, running large events, recruiting and organizing volunteers, balancing budgets and taking students on incredibly efficient and well organized mission trips. My fear is that as we strive to perfect our profession and our programs will we lose our hearts? Will connecting with students become second to making hotel reservations and placing t-shirt orders?</p>
<p>Youth ministry is supposed to be about walking with and assisting students as they discover and build a relationship with the same God we are deeply in love with. We must not forget this!</p>
<p>My hope is that the future of youth ministry will be grace-driven. My dream is to see youth ministry, as a whole, model for the western church what it is to be radically inclusive and accepting of everyone into our communities. That our message and focus of discipleship will be teaching students to see and know God&#8217;s grace.</p>
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		<title>By: tash</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-500978</link>
		<dc:creator>tash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-500978</guid>
		<description>ok.. so the whole reading of the post, then the comments and then re-reading the comments to read the new stuff means my head is swimming .. but each time I&#039;ve been thinking about the cycle of life and birth, especially as it relates to the &quot;driven&quot; idea.

in the old testament scriptures we read constantly of the barren woman. i&#039;m pretty sure that she has something important to show us today, as well as back then. in my reflections, and with the wisdom of some of the kiwi heroes of youth ministry - i think that there is a beautiful cycle of death, desperation, conception, labour and birth that ought to replace that &quot;driven&quot; model. 

sidenote a/ &quot;driven&quot; suggests a drivers seat - doh. (so far this is groundbreaking, I know) .. but there is a simply human element and agenda to a &quot;driven&quot; anything. 

we&#039;re so tempted to be constantly adopting other people&#039;s 2 year olds as our models/mandate/slogan/agenda/purpose for ministry. as much as all of the words you can put before &quot;driven&quot; have really great intent.. they will still boil down to something that was birthed in someone&#039;s time and place and for someone&#039;s season and purpose. 

I&#039;d love to see a future in youth ministry that is all about conception and birthing. Here&#039;s why.

the barren woman recognises that God has the power to open and close the womb (at the end of the day, God is the author of our ministries, the ultimate shepherd - we do the best we can and he holds it in his hand).

the barren woman goes through a period of desolation and desperation (the end of ministry as we&#039;ve done, the challenging of our current thinking, recognising that what we&#039;ve been isn&#039;t what we desire to become).

desperation leads to the knees before God - and then God hears and opens the womb. There&#039;s this beautiful moment of conception that I just love. A unique child with unique DNA is crafted together in a unique womb from the genetic material of it&#039;s parents (community, culture, environment, theology, praxis).

there&#039;s also gestation (times of growth &amp; nurture, investment in the key foundations).

there&#039;s labour. (hard yards of bringing something into being - requiring perseverance, strength, stamina, faith. there&#039;s also a lot of the unknown involved in the labour process for a barren woman... it&#039;s uncharted territory).

Birth. When something that has been living and connected with the umbilical cord emerges and takes it&#039;s own breath (real culture change, lives impacted, effectual reality).

and Life. with a unique DNA that goes on to create more life, interacting with lots of other life forms. 

yup - I really like the idea of future youth ministry being about birthing our own stuff. cos it requires us to be really desperate before God about the conception, recognising our own barrenness.. that what we currently have isn&#039;t what we want in a future youth ministry. it&#039;s going to mean we have to think better, with more applied theology, more cultural awareness and understanding rather than relevance. it gets me excited about the kind of people that can do youth ministry like this.. 

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok.. so the whole reading of the post, then the comments and then re-reading the comments to read the new stuff means my head is swimming .. but each time I&#8217;ve been thinking about the cycle of life and birth, especially as it relates to the &#8220;driven&#8221; idea.</p>
<p>in the old testament scriptures we read constantly of the barren woman. i&#8217;m pretty sure that she has something important to show us today, as well as back then. in my reflections, and with the wisdom of some of the kiwi heroes of youth ministry &#8211; i think that there is a beautiful cycle of death, desperation, conception, labour and birth that ought to replace that &#8220;driven&#8221; model. </p>
<p>sidenote a/ &#8220;driven&#8221; suggests a drivers seat &#8211; doh. (so far this is groundbreaking, I know) .. but there is a simply human element and agenda to a &#8220;driven&#8221; anything. </p>
<p>we&#8217;re so tempted to be constantly adopting other people&#8217;s 2 year olds as our models/mandate/slogan/agenda/purpose for ministry. as much as all of the words you can put before &#8220;driven&#8221; have really great intent.. they will still boil down to something that was birthed in someone&#8217;s time and place and for someone&#8217;s season and purpose. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see a future in youth ministry that is all about conception and birthing. Here&#8217;s why.</p>
<p>the barren woman recognises that God has the power to open and close the womb (at the end of the day, God is the author of our ministries, the ultimate shepherd &#8211; we do the best we can and he holds it in his hand).</p>
<p>the barren woman goes through a period of desolation and desperation (the end of ministry as we&#8217;ve done, the challenging of our current thinking, recognising that what we&#8217;ve been isn&#8217;t what we desire to become).</p>
<p>desperation leads to the knees before God &#8211; and then God hears and opens the womb. There&#8217;s this beautiful moment of conception that I just love. A unique child with unique DNA is crafted together in a unique womb from the genetic material of it&#8217;s parents (community, culture, environment, theology, praxis).</p>
<p>there&#8217;s also gestation (times of growth &amp; nurture, investment in the key foundations).</p>
<p>there&#8217;s labour. (hard yards of bringing something into being &#8211; requiring perseverance, strength, stamina, faith. there&#8217;s also a lot of the unknown involved in the labour process for a barren woman&#8230; it&#8217;s uncharted territory).</p>
<p>Birth. When something that has been living and connected with the umbilical cord emerges and takes it&#8217;s own breath (real culture change, lives impacted, effectual reality).</p>
<p>and Life. with a unique DNA that goes on to create more life, interacting with lots of other life forms. </p>
<p>yup &#8211; I really like the idea of future youth ministry being about birthing our own stuff. cos it requires us to be really desperate before God about the conception, recognising our own barrenness.. that what we currently have isn&#8217;t what we want in a future youth ministry. it&#8217;s going to mean we have to think better, with more applied theology, more cultural awareness and understanding rather than relevance. it gets me excited about the kind of people that can do youth ministry like this.. </p>
<p>:)</p>
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		<title>By: bob carlton</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-500934</link>
		<dc:creator>bob carlton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 01:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-500934</guid>
		<description>words that keep coming for me in prayer on this:

meek, surrender, patience humility, gentle.

the image from this poem -

eddying
1.  A current, as of water or air, moving contrary to the direction of the main current, especially in a circular motion.
2. A drift or tendency that is counter to or separate from a main current, as of opinion, tradition, or history.

looks sorta like this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBcdL8uO71E

a poem by Mary Karr I recently found and loved.
From her book, Sinners Welcome

WHO THE MEEK ARE NOT

Not the bristle-bearded Igors bent
under burlap sacks, not peasants knee-deep
in the rice paddy muck,
nor the serfs whose quarter-moon sickles
make the wheat fall in waves
they don&#039;t get to eat. My friend the Franciscan
nun says we misread
that word meek in the Bible verse that blesses them.
To understand the meek
(she says) picture a great stallion at full gallop
in a meadow, who--
at his master&#039;s voice--seizes up to a stunned
but instant halt.
So with the strain of holding that great power
in check, the muscles
along the arched neck keep eddying,
and only the velvet ears
prick forward, awaiting the next order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>words that keep coming for me in prayer on this:</p>
<p>meek, surrender, patience humility, gentle.</p>
<p>the image from this poem -</p>
<p>eddying<br />
1.  A current, as of water or air, moving contrary to the direction of the main current, especially in a circular motion.<br />
2. A drift or tendency that is counter to or separate from a main current, as of opinion, tradition, or history.</p>
<p>looks sorta like this:  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBcdL8uO71E" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBcdL8uO71E</a></p>
<p>a poem by Mary Karr I recently found and loved.<br />
From her book, Sinners Welcome</p>
<p>WHO THE MEEK ARE NOT</p>
<p>Not the bristle-bearded Igors bent<br />
under burlap sacks, not peasants knee-deep<br />
in the rice paddy muck,<br />
nor the serfs whose quarter-moon sickles<br />
make the wheat fall in waves<br />
they don&#8217;t get to eat. My friend the Franciscan<br />
nun says we misread<br />
that word meek in the Bible verse that blesses them.<br />
To understand the meek<br />
(she says) picture a great stallion at full gallop<br />
in a meadow, who&#8211;<br />
at his master&#8217;s voice&#8211;seizes up to a stunned<br />
but instant halt.<br />
So with the strain of holding that great power<br />
in check, the muscles<br />
along the arched neck keep eddying,<br />
and only the velvet ears<br />
prick forward, awaiting the next order.</p>
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		<title>By: marko</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-500886</link>
		<dc:creator>marko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 01:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-500886</guid>
		<description>man, this is some great conversation.  great ideas.

one thing that&#039;s TOTALLY resonating with me is that the suffix &quot;-driven&quot; shouldn&#039;t be part of our preferred future.  i agree, it&#039;s a very modern concept.  after scott miller, in comment #2, said we shouldn&#039;t be driven, we should be the driver, i started thinking, &quot;no, i don&#039;t think we should be driven, or drive.  that&#039;s the wrong wording for where we need to go.&quot;  then, several of you have affirmed that thinking for me.

i&#039;m going to try to finalize my talk on monday; so any more input you have prior to that would be greatly appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>man, this is some great conversation.  great ideas.</p>
<p>one thing that&#8217;s TOTALLY resonating with me is that the suffix &#8220;-driven&#8221; shouldn&#8217;t be part of our preferred future.  i agree, it&#8217;s a very modern concept.  after scott miller, in comment #2, said we shouldn&#8217;t be driven, we should be the driver, i started thinking, &#8220;no, i don&#8217;t think we should be driven, or drive.  that&#8217;s the wrong wording for where we need to go.&#8221;  then, several of you have affirmed that thinking for me.</p>
<p>i&#8217;m going to try to finalize my talk on monday; so any more input you have prior to that would be greatly appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: daniel so</title>
		<link>http://whyismarko.com/2007/how-would-you-characterize-the-future-of-youth-ministry/comment-page-2/#comment-500217</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel so</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2062#comment-500217</guid>
		<description>Marko -- What a great set of questions!  Judging from the depth &amp; passion of the responses here, I would say that even if you just asked these questions at the closing session, it would be pretty amazing. Speaking to a huge crowd in a very limited time doesn&#039;t lend itself well to nuance, but I am really looking forward to what you put together.

By the way, I linked to this post already.  So take that, Technorati!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marko &#8212; What a great set of questions!  Judging from the depth &amp; passion of the responses here, I would say that even if you just asked these questions at the closing session, it would be pretty amazing. Speaking to a huge crowd in a very limited time doesn&#8217;t lend itself well to nuance, but I am really looking forward to what you put together.</p>
<p>By the way, I linked to this post already.  So take that, Technorati!  :)</p>
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