Comments on: The mess we’re in and the culpability of youth specialties http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/ life, faith, youth ministry, emerging church, leadership, whimsy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:12:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Catholic Youth Ministry Blog » Marko is Inside the Youth Ministers’ Studio http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-1177614 Catholic Youth Ministry Blog » Marko is Inside the Youth Ministers’ Studio Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:46:31 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-1177614 [...] of "attractional" ministry.  Since the taping, he expanded on these thoughts in this blog entry.   Days later, Dr. Leonard Sweet also addressed this theme at Baylor.  This line of [...] [...] of "attractional" ministry.  Since the taping, he expanded on these thoughts in this blog entry.   Days later, Dr. Leonard Sweet also addressed this theme at Baylor.  This line of [...]

]]> By: Catholic Youth Ministry Blog » February, 2008 http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-1177498 Catholic Youth Ministry Blog » February, 2008 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:45:12 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-1177498 [...] you and I) ATTRACTIONAL   There has been an on-going discussion in youth ministry regarding if attractional is the way to go. A report on the attractional efforts of libraries can be found here.  Key [...] [...] you and I) ATTRACTIONAL   There has been an on-going discussion in youth ministry regarding if attractional is the way to go. A report on the attractional efforts of libraries can be found here.  Key [...]

]]> By: Step Right Up, Get Your Church Here! « headsparks* http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-981320 Step Right Up, Get Your Church Here! « headsparks* Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:58:27 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-981320 [...] Many thoughtful youth pastors have struggled with attractional ministry (if you build it, they will come in the words of Marko); think, “Kids — dudes — come to our church because we have super smash lazer tag rock climbing 2nite!” Here’s one of my personal favorites from another youth pastor, quoted in another post by Marko on missional youth ministry: Or maybe we need to get some games in there to make it more exciting. Maybe we need a catchy name with words like XTREME or FIRE or XTREME FIRE! [...] [...] Many thoughtful youth pastors have struggled with attractional ministry (if you build it, they will come in the words of Marko); think, “Kids — dudes — come to our church because we have super smash lazer tag rock climbing 2nite!” Here’s one of my personal favorites from another youth pastor, quoted in another post by Marko on missional youth ministry: Or maybe we need to get some games in there to make it more exciting. Maybe we need a catchy name with words like XTREME or FIRE or XTREME FIRE! [...]

]]> By: Jeremy http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-872786 Jeremy Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:00:30 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-872786 Hey Mark, Thanks for your honesty, and humility. I have been wrestling in the tension of performance/program driven ministry, and striving for spiritual submission. Great reminder. Hey Mark,
Thanks for your honesty, and humility. I have been wrestling in the tension of performance/program driven ministry, and striving for spiritual submission.
Great reminder.

]]> By: eric http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-599175 eric Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:35:43 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-599175 I have been involved in Youth Ministry for almost 14 years. I have used some YS materials but I recognized the "programming" or activity-based focus that you mentioned above. Unfortunately I now no longer use or recommend YS materials of ANY kind. In my estimation YS has veered (rightly so) from its activity based programs and plunged headlong into the murky waters of the emergent village. The focus of my ministry has been the supremacy of Christ in all things and the sufficiency of His Word. When I point our teens toward embracing the Christ of the Bible... to genuinely follow Him and to align their lives to His Word then we see real growth, real Christlikeness, real outreach, and real community among our teens. Its certainly not because I'm much of a teacher, and our church isn't "cutting edge", BUT God is Good and He is faithful and when we offer our meager attempts to be faithful to His Word then He is abundantly gracious to us. In my humble opinion if you really want to impact youth for Christ and you really want to help youth workers do the same, then encourage them to go deeper in their pursuit of Christ and deeper in their knowledge and application of His Word. To send them off toward the emergent philosophy is to abandon the power of the Gospel, to abandon the penal substitutionary atonement at the Cross, to abandon truth, and essentially every major doctrine Gods people have held dear. If you truly desire to "repent", and I believe you are sincere, then repent of not just of promoting activities of Christ but of promoting anything over Christ and in seeking a correction seek a new commitment to the in inerrancy and sufficiency of His Word. I have been involved in Youth Ministry for almost 14 years. I have used some YS materials but I recognized the “programming” or activity-based focus that you mentioned above. Unfortunately I now no longer use or recommend YS materials of ANY kind. In my estimation YS has veered (rightly so) from its activity based programs and plunged headlong into the murky waters of the emergent village.

The focus of my ministry has been the supremacy of Christ in all things and the sufficiency of His Word. When I point our teens toward embracing the Christ of the Bible… to genuinely follow Him and to align their lives to His Word then we see real growth, real Christlikeness, real outreach, and real community among our teens.

Its certainly not because I’m much of a teacher, and our church isn’t “cutting edge”, BUT God is Good and He is faithful and when we offer our meager attempts to be faithful to His Word then He is abundantly gracious to us.

In my humble opinion if you really want to impact youth for Christ and you really want to help youth workers do the same, then encourage them to go deeper in their pursuit of Christ and deeper in their knowledge and application of His Word. To send them off toward the emergent philosophy is to abandon the power of the Gospel, to abandon the penal substitutionary atonement at the Cross, to abandon truth, and essentially every major doctrine Gods people have held dear.

If you truly desire to “repent”, and I believe you are sincere, then repent of not just of promoting activities of Christ but of promoting anything over Christ and in seeking a correction seek a new commitment to the in inerrancy and sufficiency of His Word.

]]> By: planet telex » Presence Based Ministry “It’s a Nice Idea But…” http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-106979 planet telex » Presence Based Ministry “It’s a Nice Idea But…” Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:53:30 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-106979 [...] I note that even Mark has recently written an interesting piece titled “The mess we’re in and the culpability of youth specialties” and, while YS might have accidentally sent a similar message to youth workers here in Australia we have had many many other organisations, groups, para church organisations and consultants who, for years and years and years have (accidentally or on purpose) promoted program based ministry over presence centred ones. [...] [...] I note that even Mark has recently written an interesting piece titled “The mess we’re in and the culpability of youth specialties” and, while YS might have accidentally sent a similar message to youth workers here in Australia we have had many many other organisations, groups, para church organisations and consultants who, for years and years and years have (accidentally or on purpose) promoted program based ministry over presence centred ones. [...]

]]> By: ysmarko http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-94990 ysmarko Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:09:39 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-94990 [...] the other website is a fun little project of scott’s called “inside the youth minister’s studio.” it’s a podcast site, with interviews fashioned after the tv show “inside the actor’s studio.” today, the podcast interview with me went live. it was an interesting conversation with scott (really, i’ve come to believe that a good interview worth listening to has much more to do with the questions than the answers), and i’m honored to be the token non-catholic interview for this podcast. i also enjoyed the summaries scott pulled from the interview, which i’ll copy here: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 BIO: Mark Oestreicher (Marko) is the president of Youth Specialties. For over 30 years Youth Specialties has worked alongside Christian youth workers of just about every denomination and youth-serving organization by providing publications, training, and leadership. Marko has a thoughtful, well-hyperlinked, funny/rude, personal blog which is found at www.ysmarko.com. QUOTE TO NOTE: This is an area where a lot of youth workers and churches, in general, go wrong in terms of discipleship and that’s they just treat it (discipleship) as a program or a component of their youth ministry rather than the goal of the ministry. The command of Christ is that we go into the world and create disciples. And that’s what the whole point of youth ministry is about. . . . Discipleship is what we should be all about. OBSCURE FACTOID: During the conversation, Marko talks about the challenges of “attractional” ministry. Since the taping, he expanded on these thoughts in this blog entry. Days later, Dr. Leonard Sweet also addressed this theme at Baylor. This line of discussion should NOT be obscure in any youth ministry field, let alone Catholic youth ministry. BEHIND THE SCENES: Ahhh, an editing confession - When this was taped, my Baltimore Ravens and Marko’s home team, the San Diego Chargers, both looked as if they were might be NFL playoff rivals. Therefore, the call started off with some trash talk, mostly on my part. Unfortunately, both teams lost their home games during next weekend. BLOG REFLECTION: MARK OESTREICHER IS “INSIDE THE YOUTH MINISTERS’ STUDIO” Marko, I do believe, is a little jazzed about being considered a “Catholic Youth Ministry expert” as he becomes the latest addition to the pod-cast series. Of course, we Catholics understand “the word ‘catholic’ means ‘universal,’ in the sense of ‘according to the totality’ or ‘in keeping with the whole.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #830) Further, “those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church” (CCC 838) Soooo, recognizing we ALL have lots of work to do in addressing imperfections on all sides to get closer towards this totality stuff, It’s a honor to have Marko in the studio. Why? Youth Specialties and Marko believe in CHURCH- yours, mine, ours. They would acknowledge that “it’s flawed, inconsistent, institutional, bureaucratic, even embarrassing sometimes. Yet it is also incredibly heroic at other times. Whether we like it or not, want to attend it or not, we’re stuck with it.” So, Marko, keep on doing that catholic thing of yours. . . because we’re stuck with it, we love the kids, and we all know that the Spirit and young disciples have the possibilities heroic differences within them. No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <code> <em> <i> <strike> <strong> [...] [...] the other website is a fun little project of scott’s called “inside the youth minister’s studio.” it’s a podcast site, with interviews fashioned after the tv show “inside the actor’s studio.” today, the podcast interview with me went live. it was an interesting conversation with scott (really, i’ve come to believe that a good interview worth listening to has much more to do with the questions than the answers), and i’m honored to be the token non-catholic interview for this podcast. i also enjoyed the summaries scott pulled from the interview, which i’ll copy here: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 BIO: Mark Oestreicher (Marko) is the president of Youth Specialties. For over 30 years Youth Specialties has worked alongside Christian youth workers of just about every denomination and youth-serving organization by providing publications, training, and leadership. Marko has a thoughtful, well-hyperlinked, funny/rude, personal blog which is found at http://www.ysmarko.com. QUOTE TO NOTE: This is an area where a lot of youth workers and churches, in general, go wrong in terms of discipleship and that’s they just treat it (discipleship) as a program or a component of their youth ministry rather than the goal of the ministry. The command of Christ is that we go into the world and create disciples. And that’s what the whole point of youth ministry is about. . . . Discipleship is what we should be all about. OBSCURE FACTOID: During the conversation, Marko talks about the challenges of “attractional” ministry. Since the taping, he expanded on these thoughts in this blog entry. Days later, Dr. Leonard Sweet also addressed this theme at Baylor. This line of discussion should NOT be obscure in any youth ministry field, let alone Catholic youth ministry. BEHIND THE SCENES: Ahhh, an editing confession – When this was taped, my Baltimore Ravens and Marko’s home team, the San Diego Chargers, both looked as if they were might be NFL playoff rivals. Therefore, the call started off with some trash talk, mostly on my part. Unfortunately, both teams lost their home games during next weekend. BLOG REFLECTION: MARK OESTREICHER IS “INSIDE THE YOUTH MINISTERS’ STUDIO” Marko, I do believe, is a little jazzed about being considered a “Catholic Youth Ministry expert” as he becomes the latest addition to the pod-cast series. Of course, we Catholics understand “the word ‘catholic’ means ‘universal,’ in the sense of ‘according to the totality’ or ‘in keeping with the whole.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #830) Further, “those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church” (CCC 838) Soooo, recognizing we ALL have lots of work to do in addressing imperfections on all sides to get closer towards this totality stuff, It’s a honor to have Marko in the studio. Why? Youth Specialties and Marko believe in CHURCH- yours, mine, ours. They would acknowledge that “it’s flawed, inconsistent, institutional, bureaucratic, even embarrassing sometimes. Yet it is also incredibly heroic at other times. Whether we like it or not, want to attend it or not, we’re stuck with it.” So, Marko, keep on doing that catholic thing of yours. . . because we’re stuck with it, we love the kids, and we all know that the Spirit and young disciples have the possibilities heroic differences within them. No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <code> <em> <i> <strike> <strong> [...]

]]> By: Greg http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-94692 Greg Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:54:49 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-94692 As an outsider what I see is that the message is getting lost in the methods. Kids especially those in jr and sr high can detect horsepucky a mile away and then simply tune it out. Going through this thread that's the theme I see. Now my path is going to be a bit different as I've gone back to school to become an English teacher, but the goal is the same as yours, to help mold kids into adults. One of the problems that I face is making sure that Christianity gets a fair shake in my classroom. Obviously I can't favor it but I won't ignore or disparage it either. As an outsider what I see is that the message is getting lost in the methods. Kids especially those in jr and sr high can detect horsepucky a mile away and then simply tune it out. Going through this thread that’s the theme I see. Now my path is going to be a bit different as I’ve gone back to school to become an English teacher, but the goal is the same as yours, to help mold kids into adults.
One of the problems that I face is making sure that Christianity gets a fair shake in my classroom. Obviously I can’t favor it but I won’t ignore or disparage it either.

]]> By: JOLLYBLOGGER http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-91689 JOLLYBLOGGER Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:08:21 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-91689 <strong>Youth Specialties and Attractional Ministry</strong> Youth Specialties and Attractional Ministry

]]> By: rick h http://whyismarko.com/2007/the-mess-we%e2%80%99re-in-and-the-culpability-of-youth-specialties/comment-page-2/#comment-87687 rick h Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:45:58 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=1288#comment-87687 It is good to think about what we are doing in youth ministry in the church. We like the church as a whole go through cycles. But we must also realize that youth ministry is not that old, at least compared to the church. There really was no adolescence before the 50’s so to speak. Now the church on the other hand has been around since the book of Acts and it still does not have its act together. So what should we do? First understand that the latest craze is just that, the latest craze. Second, befriend parents, they are the ones given the charge of bringing up their kids in a godly fashion. Third, keep the main thing the main thing, that is discipleship making and training our students to do the work of the ministry. What we want of the other side of adolescence is a mature thinking young person who believes in the Jesus of the Bible and allows him to be Lord over that young persons life. Rick H It is good to think about what we are doing in youth ministry in the church. We like the church as a whole go through cycles. But we must also realize that youth ministry is not that old, at least compared to the church. There really was no adolescence before the 50’s so to speak. Now the church on the other hand has been around since the book of Acts and it still does not have its act together.

So what should we do? First understand that the latest craze is just that, the latest craze. Second, befriend parents, they are the ones given the charge of bringing up their kids in a godly fashion. Third, keep the main thing the main thing, that is discipleship making and training our students to do the work of the ministry.

What we want of the other side of adolescence is a mature thinking young person who believes in the Jesus of the Bible and allows him to be Lord over that young persons life.

Rick H

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