Comments on: a missional youth ministry rant http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/ life, faith, youth ministry, emerging church, leadership, whimsy Tue, 22 May 2012 13:06:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Intersection of “Missional” and Youth Ministry « Couch Radical http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-1194155 Intersection of “Missional” and Youth Ministry « Couch Radical Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:42:38 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-1194155 [...] folks have already begun fleshing thoughts out on the topic. You can check out Coffee with Chris, Why Is Marko, and the authors of an upcoming book  on missional youth [...] [...] folks have already begun fleshing thoughts out on the topic. You can check out Coffee with Chris, Why Is Marko, and the authors of an upcoming book  on missional youth [...]

]]> By: Jeff Heiderscheit http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-1187841 Jeff Heiderscheit Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:15:12 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-1187841 I've gone back and read Phil and Phylis postings and I agree as well. We do have the greatest challenge ahead of us. I also agree that churches can not simply hire a person to lead traditional ministry like last decades have. I'm taking an advanced degree because I want to be sharpened in the tools for helping to create change in how we do things. I will actually be trying to focus my thesis on how we move youth and family programs to become more missionally minded. How we discover what God is up to and how we get in step with what He is already doing. And, how we can engage and meet the needs of a hurting world and hurting teens/families. Exciting yet very, very challenging and draining times. I’ve gone back and read Phil and Phylis postings and I agree as well. We do have the greatest challenge ahead of us. I also agree that churches can not simply hire a person to lead traditional ministry like last decades have. I’m taking an advanced degree because I want to be sharpened in the tools for helping to create change in how we do things. I will actually be trying to focus my thesis on how we move youth and family programs to become more missionally minded. How we discover what God is up to and how we get in step with what He is already doing. And, how we can engage and meet the needs of a hurting world and hurting teens/families. Exciting yet very, very challenging and draining times.

]]> By: Jeff Heiderscheit http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-1187840 Jeff Heiderscheit Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:07:11 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-1187840 Hello, I'm new here. I have been in youth and family ministry for 17 years. What I have seen over the past 2-3 years is the fact that our teens come out in droves for serving and hands-on-ministry. They have no time for the fluff of fellowship on a regular basis. They will do the fellowship events if they are geared toward learning (i.e. a lock in with a theme that helps them grow.) I think teens now days are so stretched and overloaded that they no longer need the face-to-face fellowship....they have the fellowship outreach with text message, face book and so on. They need to feel important, needed, useful. They need to have those mystical moments of worship and devotion that reaches them where they are. I no longer do the Pied Piper method like used 10 years ago. Now it is relationship and fascilitator. I think it is actually an exciting time........I see kids getting missional....touching Civil Society in a real way. (Sorry, I'm at Seminary this week sitting through classes in my DMin course in Missional Leadership so the language is stuck in my head.) I also think people are throwing around the "Missional" language without really knowing what it is pertaining to. It doesn't mean Mission, like doing a mission trip. It is a whole new way of "being" church, rather than "doing" church. Hello, I’m new here. I have been in youth and family ministry for 17 years. What I have seen over the past 2-3 years is the fact that our teens come out in droves for serving and hands-on-ministry. They have no time for the fluff of fellowship on a regular basis. They will do the fellowship events if they are geared toward learning (i.e. a lock in with a theme that helps them grow.) I think teens now days are so stretched and overloaded that they no longer need the face-to-face fellowship….they have the fellowship outreach with text message, face book and so on. They need to feel important, needed, useful. They need to have those mystical moments of worship and devotion that reaches them where they are. I no longer do the Pied Piper method like used 10 years ago. Now it is relationship and fascilitator.
I think it is actually an exciting time……..I see kids getting missional….touching Civil Society in a real way. (Sorry, I’m at Seminary this week sitting through classes in my DMin course in Missional Leadership so the language is stuck in my head.) I also think people are throwing around the “Missional” language without really knowing what it is pertaining to. It doesn’t mean Mission, like doing a mission trip. It is a whole new way of “being” church, rather than “doing” church.

]]> By: Step Right Up, Get Your Church Here! « headsparks* http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-999103 Step Right Up, Get Your Church Here! « headsparks* Thu, 08 May 2008 00:10:07 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-999103 [...] Many thoughtful youth pastors have struggled with attractional ministry (if you build it, they will come in the words of Marko); think, “Kids — dudes — come to our church because we have super smash lazer tag rock climbing 2nite!” Here’s one of my personal favorites from another youth pastor, quoted in another post by Marko on missional youth ministry: Or maybe we need to get some games in there to make it more exciting. Maybe we need a catchy name with words like XTREME or FIRE or XTREME FIRE! [...] [...] Many thoughtful youth pastors have struggled with attractional ministry (if you build it, they will come in the words of Marko); think, “Kids — dudes — come to our church because we have super smash lazer tag rock climbing 2nite!” Here’s one of my personal favorites from another youth pastor, quoted in another post by Marko on missional youth ministry: Or maybe we need to get some games in there to make it more exciting. Maybe we need a catchy name with words like XTREME or FIRE or XTREME FIRE! [...]

]]> By: Adam Lehman http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-831722 Adam Lehman Sat, 01 Mar 2008 21:37:04 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-831722 I'm a senior Christian Educational Ministry major @ Taylor University. Y'all have just given me more insight, authenticity, and passion than I have seen in my 4 years at Taylor. May y'all continue to display this humility, frustration, and honesty. And may that authentic display lead to encouragement, clarity, and inspiration. God Bless. I’m a senior Christian Educational Ministry major @ Taylor University. Y’all have just given me more insight, authenticity, and passion than I have seen in my 4 years at Taylor.

May y’all continue to display this humility, frustration, and honesty. And may that authentic display lead to encouragement, clarity, and inspiration.

God Bless.

]]> By: Tom C http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-821090 Tom C Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:34:48 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-821090 Thanks for that link Melanie. I read this interview with one resounding thought running through my head; what about the Youth who don't have fathers? While I'm totally in agreement with the idea that youth ministry should include ministry to parents and I doubt anyone would disagree with the idea of ministering to families i can't help think that this doesn't need to be an either/or situation. We need to train and equip families, we also need to be a family to those that don't have one. we need to help teens and their parents communicate and we also need to create space for them to discover their identities within the church. We need to empower and support parents to be the spiritual leaders in their homes but we're on thin ice if we sacrifice direct ministry to teenagers. I can't help wondering if this pastor has any fatherless teens in his church. his vision seems to assume a strong healthy family structure which simply isn't reality to many teens. Thanks for that link Melanie. I read this interview with one resounding thought running through my head; what about the Youth who don’t have fathers? While I’m totally in agreement with the idea that youth ministry should include ministry to parents and I doubt anyone would disagree with the idea of ministering to families i can’t help think that this doesn’t need to be an either/or situation. We need to train and equip families, we also need to be a family to those that don’t have one. we need to help teens and their parents communicate and we also need to create space for them to discover their identities within the church. We need to empower and support parents to be the spiritual leaders in their homes but we’re on thin ice if we sacrifice direct ministry to teenagers. I can’t help wondering if this pastor has any fatherless teens in his church. his vision seems to assume a strong healthy family structure which simply isn’t reality to many teens.

]]> By: Phylis http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-821009 Phylis Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:46:18 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-821009 This whole discussion also resonates with me and where I've been for the last 2 years, after 25 years in youth ministry. I forwarded the link to all my leaders to show them that we're not alone in this struggle! I too have been trying to discern what's really changed, and more importantly, what we do about it. A portion of what we are seeing is a very strong and widespread shift toward universalism, and highly individualized 'pick and choose' eclectic spirituality, even amongst 'church kids' and their parents. Paired with that, of course, is a very low concept of the authority of scripture as truth. Issues like the existence of hell, the possibility that homosexuality is a sin, and the uniqueness of Jesus as the way for salvation are huge to some of our kids as reasons they walk away or aren't interested in what we're saying, particularly with high school students. We also see deeply hurting kids regularly, rather than as exception, who are living with layers of brokenness and parents who are checked out, on drugs, etc. Whatever the reasons, gone are the days when congregations can simply hire a youth director to run a program, and expect large flocks of students with nothing else to do on Sundays or Wednesdays to show up, embrace the gospel and become committed disciples. We need to engage our whole church in the discussion of being missional, and all the hard questions of "what does that really mean?" as stated by Tom C and others above. We need visionaries and prophets and prayer warriors and wise disciples to help us find our way forward. This whole discussion also resonates with me and where I’ve been for the last 2 years, after 25 years in youth ministry. I forwarded the link to all my leaders to show them that we’re not alone in this struggle! I too have been trying to discern what’s really changed, and more importantly, what we do about it. A portion of what we are seeing is a very strong and widespread shift toward universalism, and highly individualized ‘pick and choose’ eclectic spirituality, even amongst ‘church kids’ and their parents. Paired with that, of course, is a very low concept of the authority of scripture as truth. Issues like the existence of hell, the possibility that homosexuality is a sin, and the uniqueness of Jesus as the way for salvation are huge to some of our kids as reasons they walk away or aren’t interested in what we’re saying, particularly with high school students. We also see deeply hurting kids regularly, rather than as exception, who are living with layers of brokenness and parents who are checked out, on drugs, etc. Whatever the reasons, gone are the days when congregations can simply hire a youth director to run a program, and expect large flocks of students with nothing else to do on Sundays or Wednesdays to show up, embrace the gospel and become committed disciples. We need to engage our whole church in the discussion of being missional, and all the hard questions of “what does that really mean?” as stated by Tom C and others above. We need visionaries and prophets and prayer warriors and wise disciples to help us find our way forward.

]]> By: Melanie http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-820723 Melanie Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:35:20 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-820723 Check out this link. It's a radio broadcast and you can read the script. It talks about a pastor who has stopped doing youth group, and instead teaches dads to be the pastor of his family. It's awesome! Very encouraging! http://www.familylife.com/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=dnJHKLNnFoG&b=3832113&ct=4982927 Check out this link. It’s a radio broadcast and you can read the script. It talks about a pastor who has stopped doing youth group, and instead teaches dads to be the pastor of his family. It’s awesome! Very encouraging!

http://www.familylife.com/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=dnJHKLNnFoG&b=3832113&ct=4982927

]]> By: Phil http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-818266 Phil Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:58:00 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-818266 I’ve been doing Youth Ministry fulltime for 10 years and I’ve seen many shifts in how I need to be more effective. What works in one church doesn’t always work in every church. I did accidently uncover a new problem that has driven a wage between me/church and my students. And that is the rise of cults. Cults are groups that look like Christians, talk like Christians, and appear to have it “all together” but have a evil agenda. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. These groups have started to infiltrate the local church spreading negative propaganda and mistrust that is undermining the effectiveness of the local church. They make statements like “aren’t you tired of all the hypocrisy in the church?” You don’t need a church building to worship God” and my favorite “the church leadership is only there to control and bind you.” (i.e. this means all of you that are paid staff for a local church) I don’t know about the rest of you, but I didn’t go into youth ministry to “bind and control” anyone. They say that they just worship Jesus, but it doesn’t’ sound like it’s the same Jesus in the Bible. They see themselves as the only true worshipers of God and if you worship in a church building then you’re NOT a “true believer.” The concept of Grace doesn’t exist and its heart and soul is connected to the “House Church Movement.” (Just because you don’t have to worship in a church building doesn’t mean it’s wrong if you do!!!!!!). If you don’t believe me Google” house church” or “Organic church” and you will get the house church movement website. Click on “cult busters” and you will find 18 + web pages where they’re “desperately” trying to make the case that they’re not a cult. It’s like those multilevel marking scams that say they’re not a pyramid scam when in reality they are. They use a very loose definition of cults as a defense. My opinion is that any group that doesn’t allow for accountability is open to be lead astray. I have nothing against house churches, but the movement is based on ½ truths about the local church to lead others astray. Check out the rest of the site, it’s 80-90% anti local church and they set themselves up to be the only logical choice. If you start to see your kids moving away from you, and your numbers decreasing, then you need to see if a cult is trying to undermine your ministry. This happened to my youth group and it’s taking almost 2 years to get my kid back to the REAL Jesus and the TRUTH that the local church IS NOT trying to control and bind them. (The cult statements above are quotes from the book called “The Organic Church” and was read with out my knowledge to my kids as a devotional on a float trip.) I’ve been doing Youth Ministry fulltime for 10 years and I’ve seen many shifts in how I need to be more effective. What works in one church doesn’t always work in every church. I did accidently uncover a new problem that has driven a wage between me/church and my students. And that is the rise of cults. Cults are groups that look like Christians, talk like Christians, and appear to have it “all together” but have a evil agenda. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. These groups have started to infiltrate the local church spreading negative propaganda and mistrust that is undermining the effectiveness of the local church. They make statements like “aren’t you tired of all the hypocrisy in the church?” You don’t need a church building to worship God” and my favorite “the church leadership is only there to control and bind you.” (i.e. this means all of you that are paid staff for a local church) I don’t know about the rest of you, but I didn’t go into youth ministry to “bind and control” anyone. They say that they just worship Jesus, but it doesn’t’ sound like it’s the same Jesus in the Bible. They see themselves as the only true worshipers of God and if you worship in a church building then you’re NOT a “true believer.” The concept of Grace doesn’t exist and its heart and soul is connected to the “House Church Movement.” (Just because you don’t have to worship in a church building doesn’t mean it’s wrong if you do!!!!!!). If you don’t believe me Google” house church” or “Organic church” and you will get the house church movement website. Click on “cult busters” and you will find 18 + web pages where they’re “desperately” trying to make the case that they’re not a cult. It’s like those multilevel marking scams that say they’re not a pyramid scam when in reality they are. They use a very loose definition of cults as a defense. My opinion is that any group that doesn’t allow for accountability is open to be lead astray. I have nothing against house churches, but the movement is based on ½ truths about the local church to lead others astray. Check out the rest of the site, it’s 80-90% anti local church and they set themselves up to be the only logical choice.
If you start to see your kids moving away from you, and your numbers decreasing, then you need to see if a cult is trying to undermine your ministry. This happened to my youth group and it’s taking almost 2 years to get my kid back to the REAL Jesus and the TRUTH that the local church IS NOT trying to control and bind them. (The cult statements above are quotes from the book called “The Organic Church” and was read with out my knowledge to my kids as a devotional on a float trip.)

]]> By: Melanie http://whyismarko.com/2008/a-missional-youth-ministry-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-811853 Melanie Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:09:36 +0000 http://www.ysmarko.com/?p=2510#comment-811853 WOW! This whole conversation is fantastic! I am so grateful I came across this today. I have wrestled with this question for several years, and I still don't have it figured out. Thank you for your post, Joe. I am glad I am not alone in my struggles, questions, and frustrations! Tom, thank you for your honesty! Some thoughts I keep pondering are from the talks at last fall's NYWC - Andy Stanley, Phyllis Tickle, and Marko. From Andy - how do I use the power that has been given to me to benefit others. How can I help the church become who she was meant to be? From Phyllis - there IS a revolution going on. The church needs this "rummage sale" and we need to never leave our knees in prayer as we humbly lead this revolutionary change in the church. From Marko - youth ministry was program driven, but now students seek to not be driven. All these talks resonate deeply for me. I have been in my church for 11 years, and all the programs I have built up are falling down. It does make me ask, is it me? Or is it something bigger? But I am tired of what it was and long for something more real and transformational. In the last few years, I have also been studying the house church movement (Wolfgang Simson), missional church (Mike Frost), the revolution of people leaving the church in search of Jesus (George Barna), and the postmodern church (Bill Easum). It all makes me see how far short the church falls from God's design. That is what I am seeking - God's blueprint for His church, and to become that. Really being on mission. Truly being the community and Body of Christ. I think these guys are on the right track. I'm just trying to understand how I can change from what I've always known, to this new movement of God. And I'm not sure what it means for youth ministry. Maybe it will end. Don't know yet...but I am pressing on! WOW! This whole conversation is fantastic! I am so grateful I came across this today. I have wrestled with this question for several years, and I still don’t have it figured out. Thank you for your post, Joe. I am glad I am not alone in my struggles, questions, and frustrations! Tom, thank you for your honesty!

Some thoughts I keep pondering are from the talks at last fall’s NYWC – Andy Stanley, Phyllis Tickle, and Marko. From Andy – how do I use the power that has been given to me to benefit others. How can I help the church become who she was meant to be? From Phyllis – there IS a revolution going on. The church needs this “rummage sale” and we need to never leave our knees in prayer as we humbly lead this revolutionary change in the church. From Marko – youth ministry was program driven, but now students seek to not be driven. All these talks resonate deeply for me. I have been in my church for 11 years, and all the programs I have built up are falling down. It does make me ask, is it me? Or is it something bigger? But I am tired of what it was and long for something more real and transformational.

In the last few years, I have also been studying the house church movement (Wolfgang Simson), missional church (Mike Frost), the revolution of people leaving the church in search of Jesus (George Barna), and the postmodern church (Bill Easum). It all makes me see how far short the church falls from God’s design. That is what I am seeking – God’s blueprint for His church, and to become that. Really being on mission. Truly being the community and Body of Christ. I think these guys are on the right track. I’m just trying to understand how I can change from what I’ve always known, to this new movement of God. And I’m not sure what it means for youth ministry. Maybe it will end. Don’t know yet…but I am pressing on!

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