ok, so… i had a video up here for a few days that someone sent me. it was a video of a youth worker teaching about cutting. and it made me mad. i posted it because i thought it would be helpful to have discussion around how we use the bible in youth ministry.
but the comments were pretty strong (which i can understand). and the guy in the video, a youth worker named luke, saw the whole thing and was clearly hurt by it. so i’ve removed it. sorry, luke — i’ll be sending you a personal email also.
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I am angry with you.
This kind of ill informed and closed minded approach to this subject is damaging.
I can’t imagine he has ever had a conversation with a student who does this.
I see no compassion or sympathy in this video.
Thinking about a student I know struggling with cutting right now- this video is very upsetting. She is getting professional help now- yet I’m still scared at the thought of her seeing this. Her problem has nothing to do with attention- she was horrified when we found out.
Wow, this is very sad.
i too am stunned that this is an attitude of at least one youth worker, if not representative of more.we wonder why some are shamed into silence.
Sigh.
It’s BAAL (long “a”), not BALL, like Basketball?
So, instead of cutting they burn themselves?
NICE Biblical exegesis and application.
Oh no, my anger has subsided leaving just sadness that someone has had the motivation to make this vlog that is characterised by ignorance and a horrible use of the bible. Also great of the guy to make reference to self-harm being a mental-health issue and not simply something people do because ‘Lindsay Lohan told them to!’.
Think this deserves an email to yer man who posted it!
I’m sure this guy felt so much better about himself when he made this video. You can almost hear him say “I nailed that one” when he was done.
Wonder if we can contact him? Seems like he has tons of talent, just needs some more training/mentoring/ and have some people in his life to challenge what he’s teaching.
This young youth worker is sincere… he’s wrong on some things… but he’s sincere. Someone said “I see no compassion or sympathy”. Are we showing this guy compassion and sympathy? So he made a sincere mistake, haven’t we all. So he’s wrong on some important things, so he made a youthful mistake… let’s not be so quick to “grill” one of our own. Why even post it? Why not help with some graceous words directly to him? I would hate to find one of my mistakes all over the internet.
I’m with all of you. The people I’m most worried about are the youth that will grow under Luke’s leadership and not know any better and will listen to this guy uncritically. I’m with Adam too. I think that some one in the Overland Pass area needs to reach out to him. Is that near Mike King at Jacob’s Well? Mike would be a great guy to reach out to Luke. Marko…maybe you could help facilitate that happening? Thanks.
ugh.
the internet age.
everyone has a voice.
there’s no way to know who the crazies are.
Here’s another question.
What motivates a youth pastor to do a video like this, step outside his knowledge base and be teh expert?
What external forces are at play that encourage this?
and what part do we play in these forces?
Wow … Such a complex issue we turn it into black and white. There is more to “cutting” and various factors than the simplicity this unfortunate youthworker has narrowed it down too! I’d be angry too.
I followed Pastor Luke’s advice and went to their website. I sent an email to them asking them to remove this video from GodTube. Marko, I hope you don’t mind but I linked this post in my email in hopes he will see what other Youth Ministers think.
My response is utter shock and anger. I hope he will listen to what people are saying here and choose his words more carefully next time.
For such a seemingly “edgy” and “relevant” looking youth ministry, this guy couldn’t be more out of touch. Way to pile on more guilt to kids who struggle with this issue.
Gosh, how old is this guy? He doesn’t look much older than a High Schooler himself! I went to his website, and after learning about where he went to school, and where he serves, the style of video makes a little more sense.
That’s not to say I agree with his premise on cutting. And I also agree that his approach is insensitive to students who suffer from cutting.
All of that to say though…why be so quick to put this guy down, who obviously cares about his kids, and is trying to use modern technology to reach out to students who may/may not be apart of his youth group, about a subject to prevalent in out culture?
The point of the video obviously was to let students know that Jesus is the answer to their situation, not cutting.
Anyone going to disagree with that?
I’m sorry I don’t care how nice a guy he is or how much he cares for his kids. This is damaging and wrong. He clearly knows nothing about the subject and he just blows off this problem. Sorry, he needs to be called on this. This is NOT advancing the Gospel, nor is tending the Lord’s sheep.
He indeed needs to be called on it, but if it’s not done in a loving way – are we any better?
His heart and passion is in the right place, but to lay on the guilt and not do any research or anything – is not good. This is the problem I have often with many churches and ministries. The Bible says no – so don’t do it or you’re a bad person.
I understand the Bible says no. Why does it say no – what was going on then – how does that relate to now – and what would God be saying today. The Bible is not God.
This video just says to a cutter “You’re bad, God loves you unless you do this. Stop doing it or God won’t like you.” And tells wrong reasons it happens and they do it.
Someone needs to approach this (Yes he certainly does look) YOUNG man, and say “Dude, your heart is in the right place, I’m sure you meant this with love, and you mean well… But, you’re uninformed and not helping.
“You have a lot of talent to reach kids – it’s obvious that they will relate with you – let us help you provide a more compassionate, loving, healing message of Grace instead of this message of Guilt.”
Luke,
If you are read these comments, please know we love you and are responding to your video out of the same love and passion you have for teens. We love and respect the authority of God’s Word as you do. Just like your analogy about the kidney transplant, we can’t let something like this slide.
Cutting is a very real and serious problem in many youth groups. Please know that cutting is NOT a cry for attention. It is a method of coping to relieve or release emotional pain. Cutters lack the skills to cope, thus the physical pain can be easier to manage than the emotional pain. Intercession is critical because self-injury gets progressively worse. Cutters need concern and compassion and not rebuke or condescension. Often it requires professional help to teach cognitive behavioral skills to cope with emotional pain and disappointment without triggering self-inflected punishment.
Please don’t resent the comments you read here. We are trying to help you. As talented as you are, we want to see you get better. Ask God for a teachable heart and seek a mentor for guidance to better understand this issue.
It really sounds like he has never met a person who actually cuts themselves. Yet I have certainly faced this type of mentality in church world before and I’m sure most have.
Wow, the irony!
He doesn’t communicate to cutters in a graceous way… and we don’t communicate to a fellow youth worker in a graceous way. He leaves them with some not so good feelings… and we leave him with some not so good feelings. Couldn’t this have been handled differently? Wow, I wonder what he thinks at the end of the day? And I ask, Are we any better? Haven’t we all made mistakes? The next time I make a mistake, please don’t post it on a blog and have the whole world comment on my failure. I’d much rather you contact me… I’d be more willing to listen, and to change… and I’d appreciate some grace too. When I receive it I’m more willing to show it.
FYI, Boys Town provides a national hotline for youth with cutting and self-abuse abuse issues. The number is 800-448-3000.
The video didnt necessarily make me “angry” but it is a little sad due to the fact that it works for those of us who are already christians.
I can easily see what it would look like to a non christian right off of the bat:
“Wow, another squeeky clean, spit polished and perfect, yet out of touch Jesus salesman trying to fix my incredibly deep issue with 5 minutes of church people rhetoric”
Please tell me this a joke!!!
Just a point to ponder, not one to attack anyone. But it’s been my experience as a youth worker that there are TWO types of cutters… the ones who do it as a way to cope with and handle emotional pain, to control their pain… and the ones who do it for attention. I’ve dealt with both kinds. The ones who do it for attention are obvious about it, not trying to hide it much and really, all they do want is attention. Being firm with them that they’re worth more and then giving them positive attention has done the trick for me… They’ve never needed a treatise on why it might be unbiblical… they generally understand they’re doing it for attention, or because it’s the “thing” to do in their emo group at the moment, etc.
It’s the emotional cutting that presents real problems for the youth worker… the cutting that you can’t tell is happening, the cutting that brings major emotional response when discovered and major emotional response when presented with the idea of getting help…
Maybe Luke’s church is dealing more with the “fad” of cutting rather than the emotional cutting that we all assume is the only form of cutting?
(which is not to say that I agree with the biblical arguements against it. I’m just saying that he might not be as “unfeeling” or “un-understanding” of emotional cutting as he might appear to be to some)…
Hey Jay,
I might share your opinion if you don’t like the premise or style of the video. But I’m not ready to say that this guy is just completely wrong, or that he’s not tending the flock.
Let me also “admit” that upon further review of my ministry and teaching (especially when I was younger), I haven’t always said it the “right way”…whatever that means. That doesn’t mean my motives were wrong.
I’m not sure anyone here is completely qualified to judge his motives…
For some accurate information on cutting and other forms of self-injury —
http://www.selfinjury.com/index.html
http://www.recoveryourlife.com/
http://www.selfinjury.com/
The following books are also useful:
“Bodily Harm” by Karen Conterio & Wendy Lader Ph. D.
“Cutting” by Steven Levenkron
“A Bright Red Scream” by Marliee Strong
“Skin Game” by Caroline Kettlewell
“Blood Letting” by Victoria Leatham
and for good measure, “Girl, Interrupted” by Susanna Kaysen.
Cutting and all forms of self-injury stem from complex issues faced by these young people and “You are a sinner, REPENT” addresses none of the complexity of real life.
Young people, their families, their ministers and their friends need reliable information and people willing to understand and help WITHOUT the guilt trip laid upon young people by attitudes such as displayed in the video.
Who knows of the crazy things said every week in the average youth group. seriously. This kind of teaching is way more normal than we give it credit for.
For me it’s the medium that it’s given that makes it seem more credible than I’d personally like.
It seems that there is an importance placed on young youth pastors to be a certain kind of leader. There’s a certain appeal to being a great leader with video teaching minister etc.
So the 2 questions I’m wondering at this moment is: What have i personally done to play into the idea that this kind of leadership style is ok. and 2. what kind of potential this guy has for good.
Great questions, Riddle.
Ditto Mark. I really hope some good comes of this. And I’m really glad a reader contacted him. Good call!
OMFG.
as someone who has struggled with this a very long time (and is now almost 40), this video couldn’t have been more wrong.
i don’t want to tell my whole story here, but with enough valid statistics and good research you can see the truth behind what cutting (and all self-injury) is about.
the “cry for attention” is the least of it for most cutters. (why else would they wear long sleeves in summer? or hide their razor blades?)
once again, OMFG.
i am angry, too. doing something like this WILL hurt people, and we should never willingly hurt any others in the body of christ (or outside of it)
You guys have already hit the mark at how off the mark this guy is, so I don’t need to do more then add that I agree that this video gets my blood boiling in a good deal of ways.
So I guess another question is what do we do to handle youth workers that we encounter like this in our everyday?
How do we act in love and mercy to help youth workers that make these sort of mistakes regularly?
Do we just live and let live and watch kids get taught by teaching like this? Who helped you when you’ve made those sorts of mistakes and missteps? How did they do it?
I know I’ve taught some boneheaded things in the past and I’m thankful to the seasoned youth workers that stepped in and helped me out, but often they wouldn’t hear about them unless I shared about them. So what can we do?
This is another one of those lone-ranger youth worker mistakes I think, I know I tried hard to keep youth workers around in the group that wheren’t likeminded with me and where able to comment on these things and call me on it.
So what do we do?
I think it was an honest mistake and ripping him apart online (especially when he has no idea this crap is being talked about him, behind his back) is ruthless and cruel and very harmful. He’s misled and misinformed, as are a lot of young pastors.
Aside from that, obviously what he is doing is dangerous and will only cause those that are secretly cutting to feel more guilt, adding more fuel to the flame.
Personally, I think he needs a free pass to the NYWC and should spend some time in the CCC’s and Seminars.
i feel a little bad about all this. but yet i am torn. in a culture where we can upload just about anything, we always have to be careful.
part of me feels ashamed by some of my harsh criticisms. honestly. i really do.
the other part of me says that it was uploaded to the world wide web for discussion. maybe our tones are harsh. but it is an emotional and for some, personal issue.and when you put it out there, you will recieve your high marks and critiques. it’s not really talking behind his back. this is kind of what happens when you put your thoughts out there in this forum. this is, in a sense, expected.
but like i said, i do harbor some guilt in all of this. luke, if you’re out there, sorry for the harsh criticism. but i hope it has been helpful too.
I think it’s just when something that has this potential to mislead kids, and make a confusing picture of Christ is put out there in the public, it hits a lot of our buttons as youth workers who care about our kids and love our savior deeply, so we’re pretty harsh out of the gate about it.
I remember being young in youth ministry and knowing all the answers. It saddens me that this young man has had his lack of compassion criticized in such a public and unloving way. I don’t know how open he is to correction but I do know that the manner in which it has been given will make it much more unlikely for him to accept it. I see many posts on here given by those who claim to have a passion for supporting youth ministers. I hope an opportunity has not been missed to provide support, give wisdom, and share experience with one of our own.
Man Justin Ross pointed me to this and all I can is wow… and really, I have a student (who I have yet to meet) who is cutting I’ve seen the pics, they’re on my phone. It hurts to see it and see this student in so much pain. What did I do? #1 thing, I called the school’s social worker because cutting is way beyond my youth ministry experience and I fear for this youth’s life. That social worker is or should be better trained then I to handle this or contact those who are. I’ve encouraged the student who shared it with me to pray for their friend as I am and other adults who know are. I honesty think it takes more then a degree in theology (no offense guys) to handle this. Will I follow up? Yes, as much as I can. Did I pass the buck? No. I turned it over to a better trained person.
Maybe colleges and seminaries should require those going for teen related ministries to take more psych classes and go to support groups for these type of things (not just cutting) to help us better understand what these teens/us are facing.
just an fyi, you know who is “the man” when it comes to this type of thing? Marv Penner. He’s got a couple good books and he does some amazing training on these type of topics. most of you probably know that, but i thought i would show Marv some love.
I think some of you are overstating the lack of compassion shown to this young youth leader through this discussion thread. This not something that should be sugarcoated at all. Let’s not forget that this video (bad content and all) was uploaded by him onto Godtube to be seen by a larger audience. Therefore it is subject to feedback, critical thinking, and our God-given discernment. What were his motives for uploading this onto a pubic domain format anyway? We can only speculate, but something like this shouldn’t go unchecked. In my former secular career, this guy would’ve been fired in a heartbeat. That’s the reality of making a mistake ni the corporate world.
When I was his age serving in ministry I made a lot mistakes too and I was shown grace. But I also faced the consequences of my inexperience and it wasn’t sugarcoated. I’m grateful for that. Hopefully this guy will learn some valuable lessons that will serve him in the long run, AND he will probably continue to upload his videos. That’s the beauty of the Gospel – second chances. I don’t believe anyone needs to apologize for what has been posted here.
Apparently the school social worker is not going to do much about it in the situation I posted earlier. She called him to her office looked at his arms and sent him back to class.
I shared the Boys Town 800 # from above n hopes to get this guy some help.
What else can we do as youth leaders?
In our ministry over the last 5 years, cutting has become more and more of an issue. Mostly becuase of the media: internet, myspace, photobucket images, etc.
A great deal of the kids I counsel on cutting/self injury “heard” about it and tried it for themselves. Its a modern day drug to these kids
Sadly, many of them have been influenced..rarely do they “come up with the idea themselves” to inflict pain on themselves
i think this guy was really trying to do something to help his kids, but as everyone has said, he missed the mark big time.
as a younger youth worker, too, i can honestly say that until i had my first counseling situation with a cutter in my group, i may have made one of the same mistakes.
someone needs to take this young guy aside and coach him a bit.
Cutting has been around since the 1950′s. According to an adolescent psychologist I know, a major catalyst to the current wave was the movie Thirteen (2003), which apparently demonstrated how to do it. Obviously kids learn from other sources, but since the movie’s release, my friend’s case load took off.
First off, I would like to thank Rev. Jim for sending me the link to this “blog” a.k.a (blast another youth pastor) forum. You were the only person who had the integrity and character enough to send me an email regarding the video I, along with a video team created over 3 years ago. I would like for all of you, especially every “youth minister” who left a comment and Mark, the leader of this blog, to read my entire comment as I hope it will bring an end to your “anger.”
As for the video, I want to offer my sincere apologies to all of you who were offended by it. As I said, I was asked by several people to do the vid because there was a group of students in our youth ministry who had started bragging about cutting to eachother. It was a FAD. They were bragging about using butter knives, and talking to each other showing eachother their “scars”. They adapted the idea from a people magazine article on Lindsay Lohan and cutting. My point of view and approach to the video was directed at my audience; a group of students trying to popularize an issue that was just beginning to effect teenagers. When I contacted Mardel (a local Christian book store) asking for a book on “cutting” the sales clerk literally said, “You mean for like scissors?” Obviously, at this time resources on the subject were slim. So, I did the video for our youth ministry and the students who had asked about it because they heard their friends bragging about it. Little did I know the video would have wound up on Godtube and even worse, a blog dedicated to “encouraging and resourcing youth workers” causing them to engage in malicious gossip and slander. Unfortunately I was not the person who created the links or accounts to where these videos are being held, so removing it might be a bit of a challenge. If there is a way, I will remove the video because I don’t want to be the reason youth pastors all across the country are engaging in sin by gossiping and spreading half truths and lies about each other.
Again, I apologize for the video and want you all to know I never claimed to be a scholar on the subject, and was intending to answer the questions our students were posing on the topic. For those of you that were “concerned for the students under our leadership” I would like for you to know our response after the video was incredible, the questions were calmed, the group of students seeking attention through the issue got right with the Lord, and we had an all out positive response.
Here are some scripture verses I would like all of you to read:
LEV 19:16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not
do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.
Psalm 101:5 Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret, him will I put to silence;
whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, him will I not endure.
Proverbs 11:9 With his mouth the godless destroys his neighbor, but through
knowledge the righteous escape.
MAT 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of
judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Titus 3:1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be
obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,
2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true
humility toward all men.
JAM 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against
his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you
judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
1PE 2:1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy,
envy, and slander of every kind.
It doesn’t take a scholar to figure out you who are leaving comments on garbage like this without talking to the source are acting completely unbiblical. I would encourage all of you who call yourselves youth pastor’s who have commented on here to spend your time trying to do more for the Kingdom, instead of seeing what you can do to tear it down.
Mark, I apologize if this offends you, or comes across rude in any way, as was not my intention. I would like to ask you to prayerfully discontinue using your blog to unbiasly share your opinion on something another youth worker has done without first contacting or speaking with him. If you disagree with me, I would ask your to resign from your position with Youth Specialties. If you really exist to “Encourage and Resource youth workers” you have done an extremely poor job with this post.
I want all of you to know I harbor NO BITTERNESS or anger towards any of you. I love all of you and hope God blesses you to have an incredible ministry for Him and His Kingdom. Immidiately after I post this response I am going to hit my knees and lift all of you to the Lord. If I came across rude in my comment, I apologize again. We are all working together for the same cause. There are many different opinions, but only one Cross. At the end of the day our focus should be on Jesus, and bringing others to Him. One of my favorite verses is, Philippians 1:15-18 “15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[a] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
Paul is saying NO MATTER WHAT, at the end of the day, as long as Christ is being preached I am going to rejoice! Lets share the same attitude. Do I agree with all of you, no, but if you are preaching Jesus I am behind you. I am a friend of all who are friends of Christ. God bless you all and I wish you the best.
Pastor Luke Cunningham
As I strongly disagree with the youth pastor’s shallow approach in dealing with this deep seeded vice among today’s teen culture, I concur with Scott (2:31).
“someone needs to take this young guy aside and coach him a bit.”
As Mark’s bio states, “I work at Youth Specialties, a wonderful group of people committed to encouraging and resourcing youth workers.”
So, if they were to fulfill this mission, how can they truly ecnourage and resource this youth worker? What gentle rebuking can be made to then elevate this young man’s ministry to greater effectiveness?
Not sure placing the video online with a statement of anger towards the teaching & teacher fulfills such a mission.
i do feel bad for him–i know i don’t like my mistakes to be made public.
i hope luke, that you’ve read all of the comments. a lot of people want to extend grace to you. but we are being equipped and resourced by learning what not to do.
Sooo many things I don’t agree with in Luke’s response above, but I’ll email him directly. But if I were in his shoes, I’d probably react much the same way.
Here’s something I would like to share with everyone who blogs and uploads their videos for public viewing. Those who teach will be judged more strictly. If we don’t the answers to certain questions that our kids ask, then it’s better find someone else who does. Kids will respect you more for that.
Also the things we preach now will not necessarily be our view 20-25 years from now. If today’s technology were available when I was in my 20′s, I’d have to eat a lot of my views and sarcasms along the way. Life, brokenness and cultural experiences will mess with the theology of one’s youth. Every pastor I know experiences a shift in their theology and teaching as they journey through life with God.
Digital technology is great for the kinds of things Luke and others do with their youth groups. Freedom to rant is the beauty of blogs. But what you say and teach on them will be around for a long time. Be careful where you “pitch your tents” if you know what I mean.
Scot McKnight has an excellent post on this topic here: http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=3956
personally, I think this is almost a learning process for everyone. I’m glad Luke responded. One thing it teaches is that everything we do say and do (Even the many stupid things I’ve done) when posted online can still be viewed years later and misunderstood. Heck, I’m still getting some hate mail from a blog post on me “Hating Doug Fields” and people still misunderstand that. I just thank God for grace, mercy and forgiveness.
I also love Marko’s passion for not only stirring the pot; but also loving youthworkers. I pray one day Luke and Marko meet. I know Luke will know Marko didn’t mean disrespect to Luke just how one responds to such a ‘hurting” issue as cutting.
Gotta say – keep loving God and loving those students.
Marko??? I’ve gotta say, I get a little angry when you post a link to something like this that generates a ton of negative feedback, and then you don’t respond when the subject of the post is obviously hurt and offended. Luke clarified why he said what he said. I agree with him – if you are indeed on a mission to equip and encourage youth workers, you need to be more careful about posting “adventures in missing the point.”
You definitely owe this dude an apology, Marko. I hope you’ll step up to the plate.
jennifer — i’d been away from my computer for about 24 hours, and hadn’t seen the last bunch of comments, including luke’s, until this evening. i’ve taken the video down and sent luke an apology. i was hoping it would spark some dialogue on how we use scripture, and didn’t intend it to be a slamfest on the guy. my bad.
1. This isn’t a slamfest.
2. This is the good old US OF A where we can speak freely about our concerns and convictions.
3. We don’t all have to agree 100% on everything other than Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.
4. This is a topic that we should all speak candidly on, it is important for us to have this conversation.
this is why I do not make any serious videos…I’ll stick to the junior high announcement videos with farts in them and homer simpson clips!
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