i’ve had the title of this post sitting in my drafts for a long time — more than a half year. time to get around to writing it. it’s not much of a stake in the ground if i don’t actually put the stake in the ground!
so…
phase one of marko’s thinking about male pronouns for god (1963 through, roughly, the late 80s):
it’s a stupid waste of time to even consider our use or lack of use of male pronouns for god. only liberals who might not even be actual christians care about such a silly argument. and they’re not actually interested in god; they’re only interested in social issues and feminism. besides, the bible uses male pronouns for god all the time! and, come on, it’s god the father, not god the mother.
phase two of marko’s thinking about male pronouns for god (roughly, the late 80s through the mid-90s):
ok, i’ll admit this much, god — as spirit — doesn’t have a “gender” per se. i mean, i can agree that god doesn’t have male genitalia. so i can understand, a little bit, trying to be sensitive to our projections of a male personification onto god. but bother with the whole pronoun thing still seems to be aligning oneself with a liberal church issue that’s not really important. remember, the bible does use male pronouns.
phase three of marko’s thinking about male pronouns for god (roughly, the mid-90s through the end of the 90s):
(sigh). ok, now i can agree to the notion that using exclusively male pronouns for god is, in many ways, actually damaging to our understanding of god. it’s limiting. how come no one, in all my wonderful church upbringing and christian college classes ever showed me the feminine metaphors for god (the mother hen, the mother eagle, others), or that wisdom is a feminine word. but it’s way too much of a hassle to try to use more neutral words. we don’t have a neutral pronoun, so we’re stuck with what we’ve got.
phase four of marko’s thinking about male pronouns for god (roughly, end of the 90s through about a year ago):
i’m going to try to be a bit more sensitive to this issue, and use “God” in my speaking and writing a bit more. but there are still awkward sentence constructions — like saying “Godself” — that are too much of a pain and way too weird. i’ll still use “him” and “he” some, but try to cut down a bit.
phase five of marko’s thinking about male pronouns for god (roughly, a year ago until now):
i did some reading, and talked to a bunch of women about how — for some of them — male pronoun use for god, no matter how much we might try to admit that god doesn’t have a human gender like we do, is a struggle for them. i understand that, no matter now much we try, it’s impossible for us to fully separate our understanding of god from our experience in life, and that metaphors and history both speak loudly into our psyches, worship, theology and practice. and while it is much more work to avoid male pronouns — at least for me, as i’ve used them for more than 40 years, and hear them in most of the contexts i live in — i’ve also seen (in writing) and heard (in speaking) people who artfully craft sentences to avoid the awkwardness of structure i previously thought was occasionally necessary (when this is done well, i don’t notice it at all). i’ve put a stake in the ground: i’m trying to excise the use of male pronouns for god when speaking and writing.
the result, so far:
it’s a pain. awareness of this has led to a few subsequent awarenesses…
first, i tend to notice every single use of a male pronoun for god. it’s distracting. i wish there were a way to separate my attempt from my listening to others — i wish i could turn it on and off. but the awareness has brought a relentless noticing. i really notice it when i use a male pronoun for god while i’m speaking, and it’s extremely distracting to me! i’m even distracted by my intention to not use them. sometimes i wish i weren’t in this place, that i didn’t have this awareness.
second, i still think the “father” metaphor in scripture is helpful and good. of course, i understand it’s a metaphor (i think there are lots of christians who don’t see it as a metaphor): certainly god the father didn’t give birth to jesus. the father metaphor still works for me. but, while i can cognitively assent to the mother metaphors being just as valid, they don’t quite work for me in my thinking and worship. i don’t find it easy to meditate — for example — on god as caring, nurturing mother, like i do on the image of god as loving father. i have searched for images that work for me, but haven’t really found one yet. part of this is that i’ve lived a life with a humanized father image. and while the images of god in scripture — male and female — include lots of non-human images (rocks, hens, eagles, wind, water, light, bread, lamb), the only scriptural metaphors i have to work with that are decidedly feminine are non-human. there are also a ton of human metaphors for god in scripture (best friend, guide, potter, servant, judge) — which don’t have to be male, i’ve spent a lifetime thinking of them as male. even the feminine “sophia” — the scriptural word for wisdom, often associated with the holy spirit — has all kinds of hurdles for me at an experience level.
finally, i’m choosing to live in this tension. i’m not peppering my prayer, sermons or writing with female metaphors for god. while i can understand the democratic impulse to do this, i think it only complicates the problem. for me, that would be adding to the problem, not solving it. instead, i’ve been working to learn how to change sentences to use the name of god without a gender-specific pronoun. and i’m praying for deeper understanding and revelation from god.
i’m sure some will see this as some kind of horrible, liberal proof of my slip from orthodoxy. nothing could be further from the truth, actually. i deeply desire to know my creator, the one who breathes life into me, the revealed and revealing one (see, that was one of those phrases i had to work on — it would have been my first instinct to say, “the one who reveals himself), the one who is active in scripture, in the church, in the world, in my life.
clarifications and further thoughts
interesting comments so far. i’ve mostly really enjoyed reading them. mostly.
i couldn’t get my laptop to work with the wireless at this resort in mexico, but i had to jump on and respond a bit; so i finally paid for an hour at the internet cafe. a few things…
first, please understand that my whole point was about MALE PRONOUNS for god, NOT the metaphor of father. i tried to be clear about this, but the quantity of comments that said or implied that i was dumping or dumping on the scriptural father metaphor leads me to believe i wasn’t clear enough. i’m talking about the constant use of him and he and his when referring to god.
second, i love the father metaphor, and think it is totally scriptural – obviously so. i have no intention of moving away from or discarding that wonderful metaphor. and i will still talk about the trinity in terms of father, son and holy spirit. that said, i think we have a tendancy – i know i have – to worship the metaphor, rather than worshipping through the metaphor. this is a major portion of my shift — i want to know god better and deeper, and don’t want to be limited by charicatures of my own making or my culture’s making.
third, many of said to major on the majors, and that this is a minor issue. first of all, i find that highly dismissive. wow. i was — i have to admit — a bit aghast at how many times that was suggested. limiting our understanding of god is a minor thing? worshipping a metaphor rather than god is a minor thing? i think not. and, the quick assumption that this is a minor thing may reveal an arrogance or some other issue that allows this to be dismissed in such a manner. i’ll tell you this — this is a major thing for me for two reasons: a. i want to know god more; and b. i know so many women who have really struggled to understand themselves as created in god’s image because they only had a male concept of god.
fourth, and finally, i appreciate that lars commented that this is my journey, not a ys mandate. this is true. i’ve had this discussion with tic and jeanne stevens (my two convention co-emcees), as i would love to see us be more cautious on stage. but tic thinks i’m making a big deal out of nothing, and i’m not about to send a memo or make a policy enforcing my journey. i’ve not suggested to our publishing team that we take this direction, or talked about it anywhere else. really, this is experimental for me, and it’s as much about honoring my wife in her journey as it is anything else.
so, there you have it — for now. hope that clarifies some stuff. and i hope more people will comment.
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There is a difference when “mother hen” and a “mother eagle are used and when God the Father is used. look at the verses
Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Deuteronomy 32:11
like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them on its pinions.
Those are clearly metaphors. When I tell my dad he jumped like a cat, I am not saying he is a cat. But when I say My father who is in my house, that is a description of him not a metaphor. He is my father.
Genesis 28:13
There above it stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Ephesians 5:20
always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
There is a clear difference between the two. We cannot let our society who is uncomfortable with masculinity change who God is.
Thanks Marko! This is also something that I think about.
John- are you really suggesting that God is male? I agree with many others who have posted here I don’t think we can limit God to being male or female.
Chris,
I think you are right on. The culture back then was very oppressive toward women, and that oppression snuck into the theology of the church fathers. You can see it in things they said about women “women are the gateway of the devil” and such. These were good godly men, and those were not shocking statements for thier day. But, that attitude has sometimes been left in theology, even though it was a cultural thing, and culture has since changed. Those beliefs have been handed down to us. :-(
Shawn,
My main thought is that Scripture clearly use a masculine idea of God, I agree that God is spirit, but when I preach I cannot use a feminine pronoun when speaking of God. Since I see all scripture as God’s very Words and He uses masculine pronouns, than I must also. I just in good conscious describe Him in any other way.
Just observing that most of your commenters are male. (not surprising in the world of youth ministry, unfortunately)
I have learned that it is often difficult for those in power to imagine what it is like to be the victim of prejudice. Do they have any idea what it is like to be seen as less – weaker, less valuable, less gifted, not capable of leading, not fully God’s image, becuase of an intrinsic fact of ife like gender? Even my loving and relativly egalatarian husband can’t get his mind around what it must be like to see things not from the top of the heap.
I don’t use feminine language for God, but you bet the feminie attributes and metaphors are important to my worship and my knowledge of who I am as an image bearer.
The comments above totally dismissing the feminine, defending the cultural power positions of male are disturbing to me. What are you doing to minister to the young women in your youth groups who are trying to define who they are?
what a great post and responses. I personally appreciate Marko’s honesty in wrestling through such a heated issue. I know that I struggle with perceiving God through my finite abilities, and am trying to figure out how better to understand God.
I also wanted to agree with Marko that this issue is important because MANY woman must work through it personally. How can we brush aside an issue as unimportant when half of the church may wrestle with it. Many of us men take it for granted that we will never feel inferior for simply being a woman. My wife and I work together in youth ministry (on a staff of 7 where she is the only full-time woman)and I am walking through with her while she works to understand God and how women fit into Redemption. This issue is absolutely important as our culture has disenfranchised women and there are many looking to God for their worth, value, redemption, salvation and so much more. Marko, thanks for seeking God and starting hard discussions.
Thank you JD! (and how telling that I feel more validated when a man shares my opinion – this bias is so ingrained we don’t even see it most of the time)
@ Jennifer – don’t get me wrong. I don’t see God as not being male. I’m just asking is there a chance that because the culture was so oppressive towards women that that has influenced their thinking of God that he reflects the same oppressiveness of that culture.
I think you can still say God is male and yet if the oppression of women is lifted then i think the tone towards women changes in that culture which is directly reflected in the Scriptures.
Maybe this doesn’t make sense…
Chris – is God a male?
@ dan – I say this with complete humility.
I think that God does hold that masculine form. I guess my thing is this. If this Bible is inerrant and the word of God how can we say different? Granted there are some cultural things that don’t apply to us anymore. Could this be one of them? I’m not so sure about that.
Another question I would have is “why are we trying to make God unisex or transgender? Is it becuase WE want to be seen as more ‘tolerant’ in a culture that pushes tolerance as the way to be?
I just humbly don’t see the benefit of God being transgender.
Again I’m just asking questions. Could I be wrong? Sure. I just don’t see it.
I appreciate the fact though that Marko is struggling through this as well as other people. I really do.
Chris,
Ah…I think I get where you are coming from now.
For me, even if the oppression of women were lifted, it is still a problem to only ever acknowledge God as male. It limits God. God is more than that. I want the freedom to say the things about God that the Bible says – which includes male, female, and something beyond them both. I am not primarily looking to solve a social ill (though I do care about that), I am looking to know God beyond a stereotype by taking in the whole witness of scripture.
Does that help?
Getting back to the argument of “how should we acknowledge God (he/she)” Why don’t we just refrain from either and just say ‘them’. IN Genesis 1:26 God says “let US create man in OUR image, in OUR likeness”. If it bothers anyone to say ‘he is good” and if Marko is truly wanting to get over the use of “he” when referring to GOD, Then are you really ready to allow yourself to talk about God as THEY truly are? Father, Son, Spirit? Can you wrap your head around saying “I love God, THEY are so awesome”!? Maybe you can, but I don’t think society could make that jump yet. But, this is an option, if you are too sensitive to saying ‘he’. I like it at least…
long time reader, first time commenter:
I hope that YS does not take a stand like this. I know that the backlash against YS would be huge and to be honest, I would probably not be allowed to attend the convention or buy ys stuff if they were to take a stance on male pronouns. I agree it is a big issue, but as with many issues, I don’t agree with your stance. I just hope that YS avoids this view at all cost.
can someone help me with what verses talk about God being female? Don’t remember coming across them, but I would love to see those verses so I could study them. Thanks
Marko,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am deeply touched by your honesty and desire to know the Creator, and to look outside the realm of the male pronoun. As a female, I struggle with this issue constantly. It affects my prayer life, my worship, and the way I teach adolescents. This struggle leaves me feeling isolated from most fellow believers (male and female) who strictly adhere to the male pronoun and God as [only] male. My desire is not to make God a woman, or to get rid of the concept of God as Father, I only want intimacy with my Creator that somehow gets blocked when I limit God to a male figure. Feelings of inferiority, frustration, isolation, confusion, and anger often accompany this process of figuring out how to live in union with God, understanding that God is neither male nor female and that male and female are both created in God’s image… yet everywhere around me I hear and read God as him, he, and his…
Thank you for loving enough to brave this issue and seek God’s heart in the pursuit of intimacy.
How interesting, I’ve never struggled with the male pronoun for God, or the father imagery. I’m a deep thinker and process some things a lot, but other things God has blessed me with being able to simply accept that I may never completely grasp them. As a woman, any doubts I’ve had of being created in God’s image came from insecurities caused by people (who are sinful), not from God’s “male persona”. He’s always just been God to me, not necessarily male.
I’ve worked through a lot of those hurts and can now see how I (and most women in general) are in His image: compassionate, tender hearted, loyal, care giving, beautiful.
At the same time, whenever I’ve heard someone refer to God as “she”, it’s raised major red flags for me. I don’t know if it’s simply because I’m used to the male pronoun for God (even though I don’t think of him as male), or if it’s because I often have a spiritual sense that the person speaking is not referring to the God I know and serve. Something to think about.
I am not a Christian so the following statements are coming from a layman’s perspective. Please forgive me for any misconceptions or signs of ignorance. These are simply my perceptions as an “outsider” looking in.
I find Marko’s struggle to be meek, honest and true. As far as I can tell he has a real desire to understand and get to know God better. I have followed his blog for quite some time now and if I ever were to consider becoming a Christian it would be because of the influence of followers like him.
However, what I have also found among the followers of Christ, is a distinct double standard. Some of the comments here have leaned toward this tendency. On the one hand the Christian meekly affirms that he or she does not have all the answers and that nobody can truly understand the ways of God. But yet, his or her actions and words scream the opposite. I’ve got it right! I have it all figured out. My understanding of God is complete and fully accurate and if anyone dare question my self-proclaimed authority over theological discourse I shall take my business elsewhere!
Seems to me like there isn’t a soul on earth who could fully comprehend and completely accurately understand the ways of God and to assume that position is beyond arrogance.
We have clearly not been handed down tools to fully understand everything that God is. We have, however, been assigned with tools to search, probe, explore, seek, discuss and communicate. Doesn’t it make sense to use those tools to the fullest?
It would appear that there are a lot of people who are indirectly stating that they know exactly who God is. Have you ever tried to speak directly to God and asked for clarification/affirmation or have you decided that your knowledge and presumed assumptions are enough and communication with the source itself is irrelevent?
I stumbled upon this post today and have felt compelled to add my comments to the long list of others.
While I was reading I could not help but think ‘this is why understanding the Trinity is so important.’ God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all being one encompasses all that we know of family dynamics. God the father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit as our comforter, and nurturer(characteristics mostly seen in women.) If we understand that because of the Trinity these are all one being and yet three as well, then we understand that no matter how we look at each one humanly God is all that we need in every gender. I tend to refer to God in male pronouns because God is refered to as the father, but that does not mean that I exclude the Holy Spirit in my life as well. The use of a male pronoun is our human intellect processing a spiritual being. I don’t think that God is offended either way. Maybe once we get home(to heaven) we will have a different way of thinking and be able to refer to our God in a way that does include all genders(the entire Trinity.)
Those are just my thoughts.
Hey Marko,
In the Truth Project, Dr. Del Tackett tackles the PC Americans and says this. There are social designs for our lives as delegated by God. The male is the spiritual head of the household, the leader, the female is to be submissive to the male. The word “submit” gets a bum rap, because as males we have dropped the ball. It is not an oppressive term, but a loving term. Ephesians 5:22-33 says it all. I ask how many women would not submit to a man who treated them the way Paul describes here. Jesus was the BRIDEGROOM baby!!!!
We need to become men of God, who led us by example of what true leadership looks like.
Bo,
I think you can beleive all of that, and still belive God is beyond being described as merely male – which is why the scriptures give us other metaphors, including female.
Jennifer,
Could you let me know what the other female metaphors of God are besides Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34;Deuteronomy 32:11. I would love to look at them.
Thanks
I’m jumping into this really late in the game, and admit up front that I haven’t taken time to read ALL of the comments…
These are really just my two cents, and not in direct response to anyone specifically…
As a male Youth pastor of a primarily female HS Youth group, I can totally understand why this needs some serious thought… The God the Father metaphor isn’t helpful at all to teen girls ( or guys for that matter ) who have horrible relationships with their earthly fathers. Granted the God the Mother metaphor can break down for the same reason… but I digress…
Good post, good thoughts… As much as I want to take the easy way out and go with Tic on this one, I think I’ll have to look into some more.
Also… unrelated and a bit heretical… My absolute favorite pronoun for God is when Chris Moore’s Biff refers to God, Hisownself.
Eli,
I could not disagree with you more, one of the grates pictures of God the Father is that He is unlike any father we can ever have hear on earth. At winter camp I spoke on God the Father and talk about how many of experience bad fathers here on earth and how God the Father is completely different. One of my girls said to her leader that that message had a huge impact in her life, her father left her when she was young, in my message we talked about about how God will never leave or forsake us. He is the one we should run to when others fail us. God the Father can be one of the best messages for students to here, especially today when we have parents who fail us. We can know that we are the Children of God the One who will never fail.
Thank you Mark and good for you!!!! (from the wife of a Group Pub. employee *wink*)
John,
Unfortunately because God is indescribable we often tend to ascribe to God the closest possible character of our human relationships. And for many (my self included) they have a hard time wrapping their minds around “Father” as an adjective of God.
I don’t think it is wrong to describe God as a Father but I think it is a painfully incomplete description.
I can’t speak for Marko, but my own journey on this path isn’t because I find a masculine description of God repulsive because of what our culture is telling us. I just think it’s incomplete and wrong to think of God as having gender. Gender is a function of the presence of the other. We know what a man is because we also know what a woman is, and how they differ from the other. With God, there is no male God and female God, just the One Triune God. And if man and woman are both created in his image, it leads my theology to think that the completeness of the two coming together resemble the fullness of who God is, both strong and nurturing, etc.
I don’t deny that the metaphors used for an incomprehensible God are inspired, even coming from the very lips of Jesus who called God his Father and himself the Son. I do think we need to be cautious with how far we take the use of metaphors and how the language we use for God shapes our theology at times without the influence of God’s revelation through the Scriptures.
Again, I find it ironic how strongly some people who admit that God is not a male will fight for a depiction of a masculine God.
dood:
can’t believe you took this on publicly. well spoken, and well thought, and . . . well, thanks.
grb
Jennifer,
I am not denying God transcends all, and is all, but I am saying that he leads by example, and spells out clearly roles in our social design, and dominantly places himself in the male role. I was trying to explain that if more men would take this to heart, then his original design for all of us may be a better place!
Bo,
If God only ever refered to himself with male metaphors, then it would be clear. And I would be right there with you. Oh, how we long for things to be clear, but the truth is that it’s not.
We cant just discount sections of scripture that make us uncomfortable. The bible tells us God is like a mother who is in labor, like one who nurses her childre, one who comforts her childre, one who births and protects her children. God is like a midwife, a woman baking bread, a mother eagel, a mother hen, a mother bear, etc etc etc.
I sometimes get the feeling that people who dont recognize (or downplay) these passages look down on those who take them seriously as if they are trying to get around some difficult truth and are just playing games. Not true. Our scriptures contain verses where a male metaphor is used, and where a female metaphor is used. Bo, I know you want to say that its crystal clear, but I just dont see how I can do that when scripture witnesses to both.
And, I dont think God spells out social roles for us that are all that clear. Outside of human reproduction, men and women in the Bible have taken on the complete range of activities – ones noramlly assigned to their gender, and ones not.
Bo,
If God only ever refered to himself with male metaphors, then it would be clear. And I would be right there with you. Oh, how we long for things to be clear, but the truth is that it’s not.
We cant just discount sections of scripture that make us uncomfortable. The bible tells us God is like a mother who is in labor, like one who nurses her childre, one who comforts her childre, one who births and protects her children. God is like a midwife, a woman baking bread, a mother eagel, a mother hen, a mother bear, etc etc etc.
I sometimes get the feeling that people who dont recognize (or downplay) these passages look down on those who take them seriously as if they are trying to get around some difficult truth and are just playing games. Not true. Our scriptures contain verses where a male metaphor is used, and where a female metaphor is used. Bo, I know you want to say that its crystal clear, but I just dont see how I can do that when scripture witnesses to both.
And, I dont think God spells out social roles for us that are all that clear. Outside of human reproduction, men and women in the Bible have taken on the complete range of activities – ones noramlly assigned to their gender, and ones not. I always crack up at people use Prov 31 as proof that women should stay home with their kids. I dont think those people have ever read it – that woman is out in the city making money by buying and selling real estate.
I would still really like to see the actual references for these descriptions of God being female.
John,
Oh shoot – I forgot to get back to you on that. It was Holy Week, what can I say?
I dont think this is a comprehensive list, but here are some…
Is 42:14 – as a woman in labor
Num. 11:12 – as a mother nursing her children
Isa. 49:14-15 – as a mother who does not forget her child
Isa. 66:12-13 – as a mother who comforts her child
Isa. 46:3-4 – as mother of a nation
Dt. 32:18 – as mother of Israel
Job. 38:8 – as having a womb the world burst out of
1 Peter 2:2 -3 the Word is the breast the new Christian nurses on
Neh. 9:21 – God as a seamstress making clothes for Israel to wear
Ps. 22:9-10a, 71:6; Isa. 66:9 – God as midwife
Lk. 13:18-21 – God as woman baking bread
Lk. 15:8-10 – as woman seeking a lost coin
Ps 17:8 and 36:7 – as mother bird
Mt. 23:37 – as mother hen
Hosea 13:8 – as mother bear
Deut. 32:11-12 – as mother eagle
Gen 1:2 – the word for “spirit” is a feminine word in Hebrew
That should give you a pretty good taste.
Jennifer,
I see your point in these references, Just this morning I was thinking how it would be easier for a male to give birth than get my kids to clean their rooms! I will cede to the fact that God transcends all gender, but the fact still remains that their are clearly delineated roles that men and women should play. Society would have us believe something different and we have bought it. Just look at how sitcoms and prime-time television have skewed these perceptions. The man is always perceived as an oaf, screw-up and the wife is always fixing things. Just an observation of how society can influence roles that are played out in life. No a woman should not be “kept home” in the kitchen, but how many women would love an opportunity to be able to raise their family, be provided for and enabled to nurture there kids. I would bet a lot more than we realize. My wife stays at home, her choice, and is homeschooling our kids. She is looked at quite poorly in our society for this choice because of NOW and other organizations tat tell us differently.
The bottom line is it makes no difference if God is Male or Female, Black or White, whatever, if we don’t follow His direction.
I said His because it fit by the way, that was interesting?
Bo,
I agree. What good does it do to call God any name if we do not obey? Just like in the NT, women should do anything they are gifted/called to do.
P.S. Prov 31 is my dream girl. Actually my wife has several of these characteristics! This is a broad model of a women not to be seen as 1 person. These are the character traits that a woman should aspire to have. The NOW and others would say, “you get yours honey, your man can fend for himself.”
Bo,
I am really glad you have a wife like that. What a joy. And its wonderful that she is gifted and called to stay home. God calls other women in different ways, and it sounds like you found a good match for yourself.
Marko, you’ve probably had more comments than you can read by this point, but most of them are from men, so here’s another female perspective. I was really happy to read your post. Although I have had some wonderful, Godly men in my life, my dad for example, I always had this idea that since God made Adam first that women were somehow less important to God. I’ve come to understand otherwise, and it was quite the revelation to me a couple years ago when it occured to me that God made BOTH male and female IN THE IMAGE OF GOD. So, really, all that is good about men and women comes from God – even characteristics that are generally considered “female” like nurture, passionate emotions, grace and hospitaltity. I felt like my understanding of God grew a lot. That said, I don’t personally have a problem with the use of the masculine pronouns for God, but I certainly don’t think any harm can come from your approach to use more neutral, descriptive terms. I’m pretty sure that it can only help both sexes come to a more complete understanding of the awesome complexities of our God.
Marko,
I think you might find reading the book The Shack by William P. Young a help in giving you feminine and masculine images for God, as well as images for God across cultures, ages, and races. I found it fascinating in this–and rather liberating from my own pre-conceived pictures of God.
Jennifer, Amen to that. And I just am a little passionate about men in our society who have dropped the ball and watch as families fall apart. I know I have made some generalizations of course, but I think you see where I was leaning. I have so many friends with broken families and the Dads just don’t exist and do their part.
Discerning God’s call is always a task and I applaud anyone who does that!
Wow…. I am the youngest daughter of five whose mum brought us up after my dad left us when I was 4 yrs old. I had never thought about God and gender until approx 7 yrs ago when starting to lecture youth work in a university in England. One of my colleagues (male) was so astonished that I was still using male pronouns and proceeded to explain why I should stop it immediately. I tried to resist but soon realised that actually even though I might not have a problem with it, others might and if that is going to stop that person finding a real relationship with God then I needed to stop. I love Jesus, I worship God the Creator and it is all possible through the Holy Spirit who is our comforter, our disturber…
I appreciate your humility and the fact that you are describing a journey that you are still on. I must admit, though I do not know why, I was expecting a more liberal rant. Instead I found an open story that reminds me I do not know everything (like what you are going to say, and why you are going to say it), and how I as a leader must be learner. I am quick to point out how other people need to graciously accept the gifts, abilities, preferences, etc. of their Christian brothers and sisters – but what about myself. At the very least I would say that graciousness starts with a willingess to enter into discussion. Discussion, not mandates and definitely not gossip (even if it is online gossip), is where true growth and learning take place – for both sides. Even the great doctrines, pillars of the faith, which I happen to love, are really only useful, and wonderful, and beautiful if they are done in the context of learning and discussion. If I believe that God is trying to reveal Truth to us, then I must trust that God cares infinitely more about leading myself, and others to that truth, than I care about it (and I care about it a lot). It just so happens that the context for discovering these truths is in discussion with fellow Spirit filled believers, within community. Sorry I didn’t come more open-minded to your blog. I don’t know that I am at the same place in my journey as you are, but when I take the time to listen to why others think the way they do, and realize that they are only trying to understand God better (the same as me), it reminds me to continue on in my journey. Thanks for reminding me to stay “open”.
Thanks for sharing your journey through inclusive language for God. I’m a lay minister for youth in the United Church of Canada (liberal protestant church) and through-out my lifetime (since 1980) there has been a movement to adapt language used in hymns, prayers, sermons, etc. to be more gender inclusive when refering to God. I can remember as a teenager noticing that some of the words to hymns were different and that a few people sitting near me in church began the Lord’s prayer with “Our Creator” instead of “Our Father”. I know many members of the church that disagree with using feminine pronouns for God and I know many who disagree with using male pronouns for God. For most of my life I have thought of God as a parent, more so a mother than a father and have often refered to God as She or Her. (It’s always interesting to be attending a praise service and change to pronoun used for God in a song being sung, some people have given me the dirtiest looks.) When speaking to a group I try to only use God. Metaphors are tricky but they bring meaning. For instance a youth that has a broken relationship with their dad, thinking of God as a father may not generate a loving image rather it may be quite the oposite.
I appreciate how you’ve dealt with this. I think the tension is important and undeniable. But doesn’t it really act as more of an indictment on men who do a poor job of understanding that if people are to see God as “father,” we had better do a good job of representing him that way in our role as earthly fathers?
Chris,
Amen. I think it also tells us that women need to do a good job of representing God as mother. But really, this isnt about the faliure of men (or women) its about representing God to more accurately represent reality.
Not having read everyone else’s comments, keep in mind Jesus came as a MAN, not a woman – there was no gender-neutral option for him to come as.
I am a PC(USA) pastor and I can not agree with you more Marko. I too felt it was nothing but a word for a long long time. Then I began to understand that when we limit God to a certain term or pronoun we limit how God can work in our world. When we begin to see God as a man we begin to only think of God as a man. God is so much more than any words we can say. God is bigger than event he bogey man! I have made it a point to not use male pronouns for God whenever I preach. I try not to use these when I am speaking or praying in public either. I think it just helps us to remember that God is more than all the words in all the languages of all the world. None of them are sufficient to explain or define who God is.
Several thoughts come to mind with this issue. How I hope the Spirit gives me the exact words to communicate!
Let’s start with the Spirit. Before this blog I never once attributed a female connotation to the Spirit. In John 14 Jesus himself says, “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept HIM (emphasis mine), because it neither sees HIM nor knows HIM. But you know HIM, for HE lives with you and will be in you.” I will admit I have not studied Greek or Hebrew, but I am clear in my understanding of he/him in these verses. These are Jesus’ words.
Second, why is it so unbelievable that God as Father can be loving, compassionate, merciful, affectionate, nurturing, etc…. In the story of the prodigal son Jesus states that while the son was still a long way off, the father saw him and was filled with compassion for him and ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. Are we so removed in our society and culture that the only characteristics we associate with any type of father is one of dictator, bully, body guard, and disciplinarian? God the Father is strong, creative, defender, and disciplinarian, but He is also loving (so much so He sent His son to die for the ungodly). He is compassionate, merciful, nurturing, and affectionate. He made garments for Adam and Eve after the fall. Are you going to say that God must be a female then because men can’t sew! That’s sexist – stereotyping! Are you saying men can’t cook either? Jesus himself was cooking fish (breakfast) for his disciples on the side of the shore after his resurrection. Your description and images of “father” are skewed by culture, media, and personal experiences.
Jesus had no problem referring to God as Father – specifically. Several times referring to Him as Abba (Daddy). When people want to refer to verses in scripture which describe God as a mother hen or a woman in labor you are really misinterpreting the point. Those phrases are similes. The definition of a simile is “a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds – usually using ‘like’ or ‘as’.” Every single one of those verses that were referenced earlier begins with the word “as”. That is a simile. It is a comparison to the original – not the real thing. Jesus repeatedly referred to God as “Father”. Why do we want to change that image? I understand people have had horrible experiences with earthly fathers, but come on – what better image then to compare that God our heavenly Father is NOTHING like that! Someone very close to me was raised by an abusive, apathetic, non-loving earthly father. In fact, the person will only refer to him as his “B.F.” – biological father. I don’t have time to tell you the things he suffered because and from this man. But he has NO problem whatsoever in seeing God as his Father. God is the Father he never had. He is the complete opposite of his B.F. It brings him comfort to know that God the Father is all of the things his earthy father was not. And now that he is a father himself, he strives to be like God the Father and not his BF. Though he admits his BF was a great teacher because he taught him that he did not want to be like him. I do not think that is a valid argument or excuse for people refusing to address God in the masculine form. It’s an excuse. Period.
I know this is a long post – and I don’t apologize. In our “me” society and make “me” feel good culture it requires more than a few sentences.
g,
Just a quick note…
In English, we read John 14:16 with the pronoun ‘he’. But in Greek, the word used (pneuma) is not a male word. It’s a neuter word. By tradition, in the English language, we use ‘he’ in those type of translation issues. But, I think english grammar is a poor place to get theology from. If you want to get theology from grammar, at least do it in the original language. If Jesus had spoken those words in Hebrew (and maybe he did and its just written in Greek, who knows) he would have used the Hebrew word for Spirit which is feminine.
Also, I really want you to hear that point that no one is denying the beauty of God as Father. That is a good metaphor. And it is a metahpor, we all know God is not a human man who has fathered biological children. I think the point is : let’s take the Bible MORE seriously and look at all the metaphors God uses for himself, including the female ones.
Michball – I hope you’re still reading and I’m sorry we got caught up in our discussion and didn’t respond to your blog.
Marko definitely loves and knows God. I don’t think any of us are challenging that and I hope you will keep looking at his blogs and taking note of his faith. More importantly I think all of us (including Marko) would hope you’d read The Bible as well. You might start in the gospel of John or Romans (a little tougher perhaps but worth reading).
You mentioned a double standard that many (perhaps even all) Christians have. I think a better way to put it is Tension. The one true God and the faith we have in God presents some fun and sometimes difficult tensions to deal with. For example, I am called to live perfectly but I know that I can’t and yet the Bible tells me that in Christ I am made perfect and yet I still sin. Can you see the tension? It’s also from this that Christian’s are often seen as hypocrites – that we claim to be perfect but clearly aren’t. I don’t think any one of us responding to this blog would claim to be perfect.
The tension that you mentioned from this particular discussion is that all of us are claiming humility and that we don’t know it all but then we seem to be saying we know the answer…what you’re seeing are two tensions…
1) we don’t have all the answers and we as people make mistakes but The Bible does not make mistakes because it is God’s word and it has all the answers that we need. Because of this we can claim humility and yet point to God’s word with confidence and make a bold claim of truth.
2) we have a mysterious and transcendent God that is greater than we can imagine but God is also relational and has made Himself known through the Bible and actually coming to earth as Jesus Christ to restore our broken relationship. So we have to admit that we do not know everything about the infinite God who exists but that is not to say that we cannot know and understand God because God has chosen to make Himself known to us
In other words, while we continue to learn the extent of God’s character and therefore can say that we do not completely know God because He is infinite. We can also very accurately say that we know God’s character because He describes it to us in the Bible. Again, there is a tension. That doesn’t make either part wrong it simply means we must remember both parts…God is infinite and His ways are beyond ours but God is also relational and He has described and explained who He is and how He relates to us.
One last thing, you mentioned a tendency to take our business elsewhere if we don’t get our way, at least on the part of some. I don’t mean to condemn or condone any of the responses, only to explain. Because we take God and the Bible seriously there are some things that we believe that we must not change them…Jesus is God…We cannot earn our way to heaven, faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven, etc…these are not our opinion, they are statements from God in the Bible and they are essentials that we live by. You sometimes see us disagree on what the essentials are, though, and this seems to be the case here. It’s not that some are throwing a hissy fit, it’s that some see this issue as an essential and others perhaps don’t.
I hope our discussion does not distract you from what’s is crucial…(as I mentioned before, read John or Romans and you’ll find this)
God made humanity to know and glorify Him.
But our sin has kept us from doing this and made us guilty before a holy and just God.
Because of His holiness and justice and because of our sin a penalty of death was handed down.
Because of His love, grace and mercy, Jesus came to pay that price of death
Any who put their trust in Jesus are saved by Him, He restores our relationship that we might know Him and honor Him.
Again, I encourage you to read John and/or Romans and I hope you will come to know the amazing God who exists.
Come on people! Do you really think for a minute, God the FATHER, the Creator of this universe, and the One that made both male and female…. (I don’t know about you.. but I can’t do either of those) do you really think He’s confused as to what He wants to be called. God IS Father… I’m not saying God is a “male” or has a penis, but all scripture is abundantly clear that He wants to be referred to as He, Him, and Father. Bottom line for me is.. If calling Him Father is good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me. We can stop pretending that we will ever know this side of heaven if God is male, female, or whatever. However, we do know He want’s to be referred to as He, Him, and Father.
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