Lingenfelter’s chart (which I shared in a general session at NYWC San Diego a couple years back) is right on, I think Dave’s is good but presents some biases (i.e mystery vs answers).

Lingenfelter is showing how we allow alignment with works of culture to destroy the kingdom nature of the church, rather than characterizing the church definitively.

Jesus was known for answers….the chart is wrong in a few places.

1) IF the chart is accurate, I’m not sure it’s fair to designate the same lists to youth ministry. I like to think that youth groups generally have been able to avoid some of these pitfalls and perceptions more than “big church” has. I’m not sure youth ministry is as guilty…

2) Personally, I struggle with lists like this. Certainly the church deserves critique and we have earned much or our reputation, BUT there are a whole lot of people who want absolutely nothing to do with the church, are biased against God/Christ/Religion etc and use such perceptions as an excuse. I wonder how many people honestly see the local church as this flawed vs. individual people they have met who are flawed and thus attach these flaws to “the church”?

3) Seems like even Jesus had room for the occassional “both/and” Jesus was into both smallness AND bigness, He was into blessing AND converting.

4) The church is flawed because we are fallen. Does the list on the left reflect a more Christ-like effort? I’m sure it does. I’m also pretty dang sure that we will figure out how to screw up that model as well (and yes, it is a model).

5) Thanks for making me think, Mark! I appreciate it.

If this is how the majority of people see the Church, then is this what the Church has become? If this is what the Church has become, then Jesus has failed. After all, this whole Church thing was his idea in the first place.

I know people have been hurt by the Church, but I don’t think that representing the Church as so diametrically opposed to the person of Jesus is helpful.

I think 3.0 has a “non-denominational” sensibility to it. Marko, that mindset comes completely from who you are – and that is all blessing and not curse.

Your above perspective hints toward the same. Our churches need to become more jesus-y.
I absolutely subscribe to that. Our kids need to understand why we are jesus-y in this manner in our church, no matter if it is Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, or the Second Church of the Light of Christ.

But, please hear me, I’m a denominational guy. There are many (most?) youth workers that are denominational folks as well.

I have some sense of Tickle’s ”Great Emergence” and have confidence that my denomination will still be around on the other side… I read YM 3.0 and saw the implications for Catholic Youth Ministry on the other side. We should be transformed (God willing) but still continuing a centuries old tradition. (God willing)

The NSYR pointed out how we are failing to transmit the faith in such a manner that empowers young people to become religiously articulate. Our challenge is to be able to continually be able to critique and grow within the CHURCH that we love and embrace. I always want to be able to celebrate what “defines” us denominationally, recognizing that, sadly, some of it is the same stuff that divides us as Christians.

Our Church needs to be more communal, but, Marko, you have seen with your peeps at Life Teen that them wacky Catholics “get” “communion” differently. We are to be missional. It is a catholic sensibility (shared by others, undoubtedly) that it is not that our church has a mission, but that our mission has a church.

Like I said when I started, I’m not even sure how articulate I have been (and sorry for the long post), but I did want to share my concern.