NYWC, sunday morning

another wonderful day yesterday. i’m really cooked this morning, though. when i finally got to sleep last night (about 1am), i couldn’t fall asleep, which was extremely annoying. just laying there, worn out and tired, but not sleeping. then i was awake in the middle of the night for a half hour also. so this morning: knackered (as my brit friends would say). i have a good break late this afternoon, though, when i might try to sneek in a nap.

my highlight and lowpoint yesterday were within minutes of each other. and the lowpoint wasn’t really a big deal in the long-range scheme of things. the highlight was phyllis tickle’s talk in the morning general session. she just hit it out of the park (really, if you’re not at the convention, i strongly suggest getting the dvd – or, the mp3, but the dvd would be better so you can see her, and see the whiteboard illustration she drew). phyllis talked about “the great emergence”, the change in religion and christianity happening now, which is the latest in a series of massive changes in christianity that have come every 500 years. i’ve heard her touch on this before (and it’s the content of a book she’s writing for the emergence line, with baker and emergent village), but this was the first time i’d heard it totally unpacked. wow. part of what blew me away was how gracious her explanation was to those who would resist such a shift. she talked about the four quadrants of christianity (liturgicals, social actions, (i’m forgetting the word for the third one, but it was pentecostals), and conservatives (i think that was the word — she was certainly referring to non-charismatic conservative evangelicals), and how this swirl of combination was emerging in the middle of all of that. but she also talked about how, as the emerging “rose” in the middle gains momentum, there will – of course – be a pulling back by some percentage in each of those quadrants, who want to keep the purity of their system. this pulling back (and criticism, and distancing) is necessary and good — it keeps the center in the center, keeps the emerging thing from going off into weirdness. it acts as a balance or counter-weight.

anyhow, phyllis turned the whole thing in the last few minutes to a point that had me in tears (and i looked to tic, and he was in tears also), as she talked about the role that we all (in the room) play in this; the precious gift we’re being given, the responsibility we have to the next 500 years. wow.

the audience gave her a standing ovation, which was beautiful. she stepped down off the stage, and tic went up to say a few transition things and introduce chris tomlin. in the moment, as i was waiting to walk her back to the green room, a few people started coming up to her to say something. the very first guy was a large and loud guy who started blasting her: i mean, really, as chris’ music started, he was yelling at her (some volume on his part was necessary due to the music in the room — but he was filled with anger, so it came out as yelling, not loud talking). his first accusation was that she didn’t stand for the authority of scripture. phyllis politely responded, “oh, if you didn’t hear me talk about the authority of scripture, then i really miscommunicated” (i noticed how she took it on herself, instead of merely correcting him). i stepped in and tried to remind the guy about a point where she had specifically talked about the authority of scripture. but he really didn’t want to hear answers or responses; he was ticked. and he was so completely out of line and inappropriate in how he yelled at her. after a minute (maybe less), i stepped in, and tony myles (who blogged about this here) was my wingman, engaging phyllis, then the guy. in that moment, i told him how completely out of line he was. he pushed back (angrily) with a question about scripture, and i told him his questions were fine, ask away, but that yelling at a 74 year-old woman after she’s just finished speaking to us from her heart is what was so inappropriate. i think i said, “didn’t your mom ever teach you anything?”

i value disagreement. i don’t need everyone who attends these events to like the speakers i like and not like those i struggle with. but the angry yelling, and the horrible timing. ugh.

anyhow. between phyllis’ wonderful talk, michelle’s beautiful story (a compassion child from the philippines, now an adult, who shared her journey, totally slaying me yet again and leaving me choking on tears and words in front of 5500 people), louie giglio’s talk last night, worship with tomlin, headbanging with family force five, and many other gifts, it was a great day.

except the yeller. oh, and except for how completely crappy michigan played yesterday against ohio state. let’s not talk about that.

50 thoughts on “NYWC, sunday morning”

  1. I’m continually amazed at how vehemently people blast the emerging movement out of their own fear. Thank you Marko for supporting youth workers and forward-thinking Christ followers as we beg God to move in fresh ways (which in my opinion is what the emerging church is really asking for). This guy’s treatment of Phyllis reminds me of a Chris Rice song on his new album “You Don’t Have to Yell”…the lyrics are highly appropriate…

  2. Marko,

    I was sitting within a few feet of you and I saw that guy talking to Phyllis. Because of the volume of the music, I could not tell what he was saying, but that’s just some kind of rude….You don’t know this, but I have a background in pro wrestling – would’ve loved to have power bombed the crap outta him for Phyllis!

  3. If you mess with Tickle you’re gonna get the wrath of the Ragamuffin Diva!

    Thank you so much for inviting her to have this stage, for introducing her to the conversation (early Emergent conventions) and for making the DVD available to those of us who have missed it.

  4. I can’t stand when people think it’s their duty to defend God. How small do they think He is??

    Picking on an older woman…I guess that’s what the “authority of scripture” teaches him, huh? I take it he wasn’t there to hear Shane Claiborne speak about the Sermon on the Mount OR if he was there, he was probably pissed that Shane spent the entire time reading directly from the bible.

  5. SAD, isn’t it!! Some people have to be “Right” in order to be heard!! Where’s the love and grace of God?

  6. Unfortunately I understand that response all too well. In the past couple of years my former church drove out our youth pastor (my family quietly left as well after 15 years) and within about a six months the church itself split in two. It has been a tough to for a lot of people, and while my family was spared some of the trauma of the split itself, remaining close to people in what is now two churches, people who won’t have much to do with each other, is an adventure in itself.

    After hearing Phyllis, though, it gave me not just one but a series of “a-ha” moments, like puzzle pieces falling into place, about why that happened to our church, and even why it’s been important for me to maintain those relationships despite the tension between them. Some people have not understood my prayer that both churches that resulted from the split — one quite “traditional” and one more toward the center of the rose — not only survive, but thrive.

    I don’t know if my brothers and sisters can or will come to understand any of that, but I never would have believed any of that experience would have made any sense at all. It’s a start where before there was only pain and confusion.

    So, I pray for your “yeller” as I do for many of those in our church that underwent what I hope we will look back on and see a mitosis, rather than simply pain and destruction.

  7. Mark,
    Greetings. I’m truly sorry that this happened. It seems like you handled the situation in a very pastoral manner. Much as you did with me. I have to say you are truly an amazing pastor and your ministry touched me after St Louis. I hope the gentleman from Atlanta has an epiphany and can have a rational and open converstaion. I wish you well as you close the event.

  8. Wow, Mark,
    I’m sorry to hear this happened… I do want to get her talk after reading your blog…
    It is interesting though how there are those that call themselves Christians and don’t show Grace… or even scriptural knowledge… What does Christ (and Paul) say about talking to someone that you feel is wrong in the Church? It’s sad and I feel sad that he did that, for you but even more so for him… I will lift up all concerned in my prayers…
    There are some exciting things a foot in the church. The Holy Spirit is being poured out and taking things to a different place. God wants His children to come to Him, and He’s giving us ways of drawing closer to Him, that are exciting and new!
    Does that mean that the old ways are “bad” or “wrong”? Not necessarily, likewise the same applies to the new… All it is is just different.
    A lot of folks that defend “conventional Christianity” forget that really this methodology is only about 150 years old.
    We always need to be looking for those Velvet Elvi’ that we all have lurking… Are we serving a living God? That is the important question. If the answer is yes then that means that change is inevitable…
    God Bless…
    Jim

  9. Marko, I’m really sorry that this happened, but I can’t say that I’m surprised. In fact, based on the last few minutes of Phyllis’ talk, she probably isn’t surprised that some people reacted that way, either. She talked about the bloody battles that have happened within the church when there have been these reformations in the past, and she pleaded with us not to let it happen this time around. At this point, the two sides (as much as I hate to think of it as two sides) don’t really understand each other. I know emergent people who are absolutely convinced that the modern church is so flawed that you can’t follow Jesus there. I know modern church people who think that everyone involved in the emerging church are heretics. Obviously, neither of these positions is completely correct. Unfortunately, I’m afraid that if we can’t figure out a way to encourage communication and understanding, and to tone down the rhetoric, confrontations like the one you witnessed could become more common, not less common.

  10. Sorry to hear that someone had an impolite reaction, but others around me heard her say the same thing, that scripture is not the final authority, but our interpretation is. Sadly, a standing ovation revealed a lack of discernment at the conference, which seemed to focus more on process than theology. Perhaps it is because YS is becoming “emergent” itself and not wanting to sacrifice harmony for sound doctrine.
    So to have a real conversation about Tickle and not just a blasting of the jerk who yelled at her, do you all really think her diagram was accurate? Does fringe Christianity really belong at the center and orthodox Christianity in the corner? Is the only function of traditional beliefs as a ballast on the edges? Also , her 500 year construct is weak in at least two ways. 1) I can construct any interval of time to suggest change if I mix political (fall of Rome), theological (Split of East-West) and pseudo-intellectual (Darwinism, Quantum theory) events. 2) She assumes that the Emergent Church is the positive coming out of this. She said herself that the rejection of the Eastern Church was because of bad theology, I would say the ultimate rejection of the Emergent church will be for the same reason. So even if God decides to use random 500 year cycles to make changes, who’s to say that the Emergent church is on the right side of that?
    We should be a lot more cautious before embracing a “movement” that refuses to be defined. Any definition or attempt to describe whatever “Emergent ” theology is will be quickly pushed aside by those who don’t want to be “boxed in”. Theology suffers for community and critical thinking has gone by the wayside.
    As proof, many will rebuke this as closeminded without even reading criticisms of the emergent church. Try http://teampyro.blogspot.com/ and search it for some commentary.
    I have attended YS events for over a decade and have learned a lot and value many of the speakers. I would actually love to have heard Andy Stanley respond to Phyllis Tickle’s statements. This would not be so because even though emergence values dialog, only so if there is already agreement. Perhaps next year, there can be discussion, not just presentation.
    I would simply point out that Jesus spoke the truth, even when it sent people away because the truth was more important than a standing ovation.
    Recently Willow Creek admitted the Seeker Sensitive stuff has failed ( http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/10/willow_creek_re.html ) and how many churches jumped on the bandwagon so uncritically. So to all you reading this, please slow down and don’t just be moved by passionate speaking, but be moved by Truth.

  11. Phyllis was right on! She beautifully explained the nature of big change throughout the history of the church, what precipitated it, and what’s getting ready to happen next in the future history of the church. It’s unfortunate that some people can’t get beyond their own egos or selves or understaindings, or whatever to be teachable and informed. Phyllis, I applaud you! Marko, I thank you!

  12. corey — i totally agree with you that the wrong timing and approach of the \”criticiser\” is a seperate issue from the complaints he expressed (though, anecdotaly, there does seem to be some congruence, or familiarity between his position and his approach).

    that said, my impression was that phyllis went to lengths to clarify what things she said were her opinion, and what things she said were others\’ opinions or common opinion. she often said, \”this part is just what i think\”, or \”MY opinion of this is….\” i thought that was a very helpful distinction. and one of the places she most strongly said that was when she said it was her opinion that the emerging church is that new expression. so \”the right side of that\” is certainly yet to be determined.

    hey, i\’m just glad to have someone who is jazzed about teampyro\’s stuff that is even willing to attend a ys convention, and hasn\’t already written us off as either heretics or merely providers of fun and games (the two extreme charicterizations of ys that seem to be pervasive on that site and those who comment on it). thanks for staying in the mix, corey! we need you.

  13. Hey Marko,
    Thanks for your reply. And I do appreciate YS and all it has done and I know I won’t agree with everything. My concern is that for YS to put someone up who endorses people like John Spong and others who are not just outside orthodoxy, but outside everything but universalism is to endorse her views. So even when she says “my opinion”, that carries the weight of “What are you going to do when you are the most powerful person in the room”. Well, she was and YS put her there. Is it possible to have a public point/ counterpoint on the main stage? I did appreciate some of her thoughts, but it was clear that she endorses emergent church stuff and YS therefore is endorsing that.
    As far as congruence between approach and position, I do not know what he said so I don’t know his position, but Jesus occaisionally rebuked leaders publically and overturned a table or two . Perhaps he felt the same anger. I have noted too that from the above posts, there is no grace at all for him, people quick to jump on and label him and that is somehow appropriate.
    I’m not sure how much I want to air this openly because I don’t want to get into crossing lines of respect either. I appreciate your work and love for Christ, but I am hoping for some better discernment in the direction of YS as a whole. Certainly you do not want to be on the wrong side of the discussion while “teaching” 15k youth leaders.

  14. see, this is where you and i would disagree, corey (thanks for the friendly tone of your comment, btw): i do NOT agree that someone speaking at YS is an endorsement from YS. this is why i said, in the opening session, that some of the speakers have wonderful stuff, and some of the speakers have absolute crap. of course, you and i would clearly disagree on which of those phyllis’ talk was (and i would happily endorse her and her talk, personally). but ys, as an organization, believes that you — corey — are smart enough to use discernment. and we believe that you — corey — are in connection with the god of the universe who will help you with that discernment. which is exactly why i am jazzed to have a convention where andy stanley speaks AND phyllis tickle speaks, and where two sessions (as it turns out) are a pure scripture reading and nothing more (seriously, show me a john macarthur or john piper event where scripture would be trusted thus).

    the idea of us being on “the wrong side” of the discussion (with respect to you, corey) is just a total non-sequiter to me. i mean, it just does not compute. almost makes me laugh. ok, it does make me chuckle a little bit. “the wrong side”? wow.

    “the right side” of the discussion, as far as i’m concerned, and what we at ys strongly feel god has called us to, is to challenge everyone in their thinking. we want you, and everyone else who attends the event, to find those they totally agree with, and those they totally disagree with. and — THIS PART IS REALLY IMPORTANT – we actually trust god. we trust god to help you discern. we trust god to bring truth forth, to suppress un-truth, to reveal truth in and from unexpected sources, and to speak to each unique person who attends in the midst of their baggage and story and bias and filters. that’s the god we trust in. that’s the truth we believe wins the day.

  15. Someone jumped Phyllis Tickle? Wow. I was in the store area so I didn’t see anything, not to mention that God chose that moment to run me over with a Mack truck.

    But I thought that Ms. Tickle’s presentation was profoundly prophetic. I don’t think any of us realized just how prophetic – the whole comment about violence hit just a bit too home.

    Have a safe trip home!

  16. I loved Phyllis’ talk. I had almost skipped the session to take a nap, but my grande cup of coffee kicked in and I decided to go. I was so glad afterwards that I went. It was a definite aha moment for me. And when she talked about how the next change was in our hands, all I could say to myself was “holy crap, she’s right.” I hate to hear about the guy yelling at her though. Many people in the bible belt tend to think they have to be the defenders of God these days.

  17. Just found this blog after attending the ATL YS conference. (I was surfing the web looking for some info on Phyllis.) I too was blown away by her, not sure if I agree with it all or not, I’m still in the process of weeding through everything. I am saddened by this guy who felt the need to “yell at” an older woman, whether she is right or wrong she deserves respect. Yet as Corey pointed out this guy also, right or wrong, deserves the same respect because, he too is made in the image of our creator. It doesn’t seem he is finding it here either.

    I do see the 500-year trend and do sense the change among us, however I am wrestling with some of her talk. I wonder if some of her thoughts and conclusions come because of her involvement in a high church setting and if they really reflect all of us? Granted I am a part of a restoration movement that for the last 180 years has decentralized the church so maybe that is where my struggle comes from. Regardless I do appreciate the opportunity to hear her and I do appreciate the belief in my intelligence to weed through her and others. (I do hope that YS never goes so far as to invite a John Shelby Sponge though.)

    There was one major bummer about the conference though, only one Crowder slot????? :o)

  18. Hey Marko,
    I guess we’re going to have to disagree and I see where your stand is, thanks for clarifying it. What I read, and please correct error, is that there is not a right or wrong theologically? You even chuckled at the point that someone might be wrong? You say that we are the deciders of “crap” and yet say the following
    “the right side” of the discussion, as far as i’m concerned, and what we at ys strongly feel god has called us to, is to challenge everyone in their thinking. we want you, and everyone else who attends the event, to find those they totally agree with, and those they totally disagree with”

    So, by this, to be clear, the role of YS is not to pronounce truth, but just a discussion of it, and in the end it is God IN us that is the decider EVEN if our “interpretation” of that truth is contrary to the plain meaning of scripture?

    I find it odd that you admit that you would knowingly give stage time to people who pronounce crap. Who might they be? And why play the game of “guess the truth”?

    Mark, I would love to continue this conversation after the holiday, but not here because I do respect your leadership even though it seems the chasm draws wider. As moderator, you have my email. I’ll check back here for a response, but would prefer then to discuss this privately if you wish because I’m not in this to publically bash you, but to call your attention to some thoughts. I only published here in the first place in the event others might see the same things.

  19. Marko:

    In all of my years of attending YS, Saturday was the best day ever. The two seinars that I took (Mike King & Chris Folaansbee) were great and both general sessions were great.

    I was looking forward to Phyliss talk for months and she (in my opinion) did not disappoint. The thing that I think she does so well is to describe the emergent/emerging is much more than just conversation from some “church-goers”. There are significant things that are contribuuting to what is occurring and coming.

    I thought the CCC that I attended went well as well. I was hoping to chat for a few minutes when you came into the room but you seemed a little busy.

  20. one of my students was close by when this man was yelling at phyllis tickle and was pretty appalled by his behavior. it is sad how bad we can treat our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

    personally, i was left rather speechless after phyllis’ presentation and i still am processing it all. i’ve ordered the dvd so i can share it with others and get their thoughts. what a tremendous launching point for discussions!

    it’s interesting to read the bit of conversation between marko & corey. i am a first-year college chaplain and brought my students leaders to ys with me. as we debriefed their experience, the discussion and thoughts were amazing and covered the spectrum of agreeing/disagreeing, being comfortable/uncomfortable, etc, with various parts of the weekend. it is what i expected, and honestly, what i hoped for. i told my students that i wanted them to be thinking and questioning what they saw and heard. if they didn’t, i’d be concerned.

    i really appreciate the environment of suspended judgment that exists at ys. i go knowing i’m not going to agree with everything, but knowing that i’m going to meet God in a variety of ways, and leave processing new information, searching the scriptures, and praying for God to be my guide, as He’s promised to be. with an interdenominational event like ys is, it would not be wise for ys to claim to be presenting the “truth.” each denomination has their own beliefs and doctrines that they claim to be truth.

    so, marko, thanks for your leadership and commitment to providing amazing opportunities for delving deeper into life with God, life with each other, life with myself… i was blessed! may many (more) discussions be birthed from this weekend!

    (um, i also have to “ditto” the comment above about only one set with crowder! :) but, it was better than none!)

  21. I did not care for the things Phyllis said too terribly much, which was strange because I consider myself an intellectual, but I RESPECT HER GREATLY. If the yeller ever reads this, I just want to testify to about half a dozen times over the 24 hour period after her talk that I saw her standing with a group of youth workers in dialogue with them. I LOVED HOW AVAILABLE THAT WOMAN WAS TO PEOPLE, MORE THAN ANY OTHER SPEAKER AT YS THIS YEAR, PERIOD!

  22. A was mentioned earlier by another poster, Ms. Tickle’s words were nothing short of prophetic. I called my wife afterwards and could only explain what had happened by telling her that it was the most prophetic thing I had heard in my short lifetime.
    In regards to the guy who got angry with her after she left the stage, I would have to offer some wisdom, not from myself, but from the mind of Ms. Tickle herself. As she offered her diagram on the white board, she gave a refreshing and insightful viewpoint for those Christians who made up the 9%. As I remember, in a nutshell, these were the Christians who resist change and hold on to the traditions and doctrinal claims of old, unable, for whatever reason, to move forward with the broader church. We would generally regard these people with the labels “funadametalist” (a loaded term for myself as a moderate southern baptist), “hyperconservative” or “Right-wingers” (which I think has been used even in this blog discussion). In my experience our generation makes heroic claims for open-minded dialogue, yet these conservatives are somehow often left out of the conversation. We are angered by their viewpoints, for a number of reasons, and write them off as outdated and irrelevant. But if we are to take Ms. Tickle’s wisdom in it’s fullness, then we must remember the respect, validity and importance which she gave to this group of people in the formation of the church. They were the ones who provide a much needed balance to the discussion when we (those who are progressive) are often easily swayed by the passing fads and popular ideas. They are the ones who are entrusted with the passionate desire to remember the traditions and doctrines which have sustained and outlined Christianity for hundreds and thousands of years.
    Sure, this guy handled it completely wrong and disrespectfully. But we must claim his voice as a voice from our heritage, seeking that same truth which we are seeking and keeping us in check and in dialogue with orthodoxy.

  23. corey – i’m glad you took a pass at summarizing what i was saying, because it’s not what i meant! :)

    no, i do not believe there isn’t a right or wrong. ooh, double negative. i do believe (then) there is right and wrong. totally. i chuckled (dang that could sound demeaning, and i really don’t mean it that way) at the admonition that ys should be careful about coming down on the wrong side of truth.

    a couple clarifications: i, and i expect most of the other employees of ys, have various theological convictions and beliefs, some stronger than others, i’m sure. ys, as an organization, however, as is stated in our online statement of belief (which infuriates those who are really into statements of belief), and as i’ve stated here many times, desire to serve the entire christian church, and do not take up positions on most issues that the church has disagreement about.

    that said, i think there’s plenty of stuff we “pronounce truth” about, especially as it pertains to the youth worker’s relationship with god, and other realities of youth ministry.

    i don’t think we give any stage time to people we KNOW deliver crap, btw. and, as you surely can see from the other comments here, very few found phyllis tickle’s message to be that. we usually try to help our main stage speakers understand the breadth of the audience, and what would be helpful or not helpful. for instance, both when anne lamott spoke, and when jerry falwell spoke (sure, two extremes), we encouraged both of them that a purely political talk, blasting “the other side”, wouldn’t be helpful in our context.

    surely, i don’t see this as an end game of “guess the truth”. we’re talking about discernment. in concert with the holy spirit. i have to believe (making some assumptions about your belief set here, corey, based on what you’ve said) that you would agree with me that this is part of the holy spirit’s role in the lives of believers. this is where i come back to the issue of trusting god to reveal truth (and untruth).

    and, i see GREAT value in being exposed to ideas that are different than my own, EVEN IF THEY ARE theologically, something i would disagree with.

  24. Phyllis Tickle’s talk was without a doubt one of the highlights of the entire conference. It was unexpected and different. Truly different. Great job on the entire conference.

  25. Well it seems to me that it is time. Time for us to realize that the church is changing. Mrs. Tickel’s message was the best unwrapping of what is going today. I went to here seminar the next day was so amazed at how many were truly there to hear what she had to say. Living in South Florida I can truly comrehend what she was saying. I am so thankful that YS is willing to place people on the platform that make us strech our thinking. Mark, thank you for taking a step of faith knowing that not everyone would agree. I am sorry for the situation that occured but as you pointed out it was little compared to what God did the entire day. (sorry for any mis-spellings ;)

  26. I so KNEW i shoulda rebooked my ticket so as not to miss Atlanta. Being that Phyllis is relatively unknown in the everyday circles of youthworkers here (although I suspect much more known in the emerging circles)..it just would’ve been choice to at least have the opportunity to hear it, even to be challenged or comforted.

  27. Thanks Mark for the discussion. I guess I’m old school in believing that scripture is our highest authority and when someone contradicts that publically, I must respond publically. It is also evident that no one responding wants to deal with where Phyllis is coming from theologically ( again I site her cheering on John Spong) but rather people are wooed by calls to unity andf progressiveness for whatever reasons. Unfortunately, much orthodoxy has been discarded in favor or fake fellowship as seen in the Episcopal church itself. I rest comfortably rejecting the “prophetic wisdom” of someone who endorses Sophia worship and some of the most liberal theologians of our day. BTW, I am not a hyper fundie legalist either, but I do believe that there are truths, they can be known, and many of them are. To all who have posted and loved her talk ( your freedom to do so) , please at least consider a) what you loved about it and b) theological contexts including doing so real reading on who she agrees with. ( This is easy as she has reviewed many a book). Come down where you will, but scripture warns of false gospels so please be discerning, not just swayed by rhetoric.

  28. Corey, Marko. Thank you for your dialogue. I appreciate it when two people who love Christ can enter into a conversation, knowing that they probably disagree with one another, but will respect one another enough to not depersonalize the other or ‘cast stones’ at them to help their own purpose. Corey – I also like your attempts at moving the conversation out of the public sphere so that you could voice your opinions more quickly and clearly so as not to tick off everyone else in the world. This conversation is a good example of healthy dialogue and makes me happy that the church can love one another even when they disagree. Thanks

  29. Enjoyed the dialogue, and if nothing else, can’t wait to get the DVD to see what all the fuss is about! BTW, as someone who didn’t make the conference, are there any other recommended “must-hear” sessions I should purchase?

  30. great question, larry — and i’ll let others respond. that’s a tough one, as what defines ‘must hear’ is so subjective and personal! for me, the ‘must hear’s this year were phyllis tickle, doug fields, and ralph winter (in st louis).

  31. Great discussions, but I wonder if the real point of Phyllis’s talk and Marko’s blog was the anger displayed over words. Talking louder and using hateful language has never advanced the cause of Christ. The fact is, change is coming and if we are going to continue to proclaim the name of Christ ” if I speak in human or angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or clanging cymbal…” (1 Corinthians 13:1)
    Let’s face it to most outside the church we are resounding gongs…
    I believe Phyllis Tickle was right on in encouraging us to try to face the future with love, compassion and understanding for a culture that has very little if any understanding of who God truly is.

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  33. Just listened to Phyllis Tickle for the entire afternoon in Lakewood,NY….She is a very good talker–and a very sweet person. It stops there.This in my estimate is a pure cover to bring all Churches together, in a world circle, even with their differences. The die-hards would be somewhere on the bare inside, while those who agree with unity at all costs are in the middle..I asked her who would control this mess-she of course could not answer that..I talked with her some, but did not get the opportunity to talk with her after her presentation on the emerging church..I personally believe it is another attempted plan to create a one world church to fit the one world govt, that seems to be coming together much faster after 9/11..To state that those who have a deep biblical faith can get along with those that do not, is absurd.One can respect his fellow man as a person, all having human faults and failings, but he can have no fellowship with unbelief in matters of Biblical faith, It will never work.

  34. Core has a very worthwhile comment on the SOURCE of Phyllis Tickle’s so-called theology…In it’s essence it’s “new age” jargon.When you look at a person’s heros, you know where there coming from.As old as the devil’s lie. “Hast God,said”

  35. Before you get overwhelmed with Phyllis Tickle’s “Emerging Church” please take time to go to”gracetoyou.com and check out John MacArthur’s discussion of this old moderism with a new name.It will be worth your time.Thank’s–Ken

  36. Ken Dep,

    I do believe Christians can worship God with instruments, I believe that the Holy Spirit is with me even though I don’t speak in tongues and I believe that people can still get into heaven without being baptized in/with water. By your comment above (last two sentences at 732pm on 12/1/07), does that mean that I’ll never be able to fellowship or get along with other Christians that have opposing views?

  37. I may be a bit late on this discussion…but better late then never.
    First off…I was sitting next to “the angry man” at the conference. I attended the conference with him. I did not know him before, as he is a friend of a friend whom I attended with. He loves God. He is a passionate expressive person. He is not simply an angry man. Immediately after Doug Fields talk he went straight to Doug and told him what he loved about his talk. He prefers to be the kind of viewer that goes to a speaker and voices his concerns rather than sit in his chair and grumble under his breath. I agree that it would have been much more appropriate to take some time, collect his thoughts, bring his concerns to the Lord in prayer, and then approach Mrs. Tickle in a more controlled manner.
    That’s all about my new buddy.
    I would like to offer a few of my opinions on Mrs. Tickle’s talk. It has been a few weeks, but I hope I can maintain accuracy in my comments. I enjoyed a lot of what Mrs. Tickle had to say. She is quite smart and well educated. However, I was concerned with her teaching. In my opinion, she made she very dangerous statements. The biggest concern for me was her approach to our responsibility over the next 500 years. My feeling was she puts far too much emphasis on our role in the Church. It was very refreshing to hear Louie Giglio proclaim that Jesus established HIS CHURCH. Not our church. HIS CHURCH.
    In regards to YS’s responsibility in putting Mrs. Tickle on the stage…I understand Marko’s approach in encouraging discernment among the listeners, however when you have a main session speaker spend next to zero time in scripture, that would be a concern for me. I would have enjoyed this talk in a workshop where there is deliberate room for discussion.
    Speaking on behalf of my buddy, he says he is constantly bombarded with liberalist “utopian” socialism. He was bothered by Mrs. Tickle’s teaching because it echoed much of the liberalism that he too often encounters. My buddy is passionate about teaching that is firmly rooted in Scripture, not social and historical study.

  38. this is still my favorite session at a ys convention ever. phyllis is speaking in my area on monday. i’m not going to miss it. i wouldn’t be caught dead anywhere else.

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